WST

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Crazy Horse

Crazy Horse

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Good afternoon everyone.

Yesterday I went to an outdoor range for the first time in a long time-I'm a member of an indoor range gun club. I took 100 rounds of 45 acp loaded with WST. It is a new powder I've been trying and worked well when I used it indoors. It was a hot day -Texas- and I fired 30 rounds with no issues right after arriving. Since we were in an outdoor range, we took the opportunity to fire shotguns and other firearms the aren't normally allowed on indoor ranges. My bullets stayed on the table the whole time partially under shade and then in the sun. After about an hour I went back to my 45 acp. I loaded 10 rounds. This time, I had 3 jams (failure to return to battery and failure to clear with the slide jamming). I thought it odd. I went to the indoor range today and fired 70 45 acp rounds with loaded with WST. No issues. My question, are there powders/reloads that are affected by temperature (case or powder expansion that cause battery issues)? I've fired plenty of reloaded bullets and normally use CFE with no issues.

Also, I purchased WST with the intent of trying and using it on 9mm and 45acp. I have since learned that load data for 9mm is not available. I researched the issue and found out that there were issues with WST and 9mm so they took the stance of not publishing the load data and recommend using WST only for shotgun, 45acp, and 38 special.

I've seen older posts where posts have been positive on using WST with 9mm 124gr data.

I would like to use WST for the calibers I load the most and have had excellent results with the 45acp. Does anyone here currently use WST with 9mm bullets? If so, could you point me to a site that has load data for WST and the 9mm.

TIA

CH
 
I've heard people say that WST is one of the few powders that is reverse temperature sensitive. That is, it gets slower as it heats up.

I've never used it, so I'm not speaking from experience.
 
I really like WST... I used it as my AA-duplicate 12ga powder for many years, and it works well with 200grn .45ACP. I was considering it for 9mm, I even have some basic data for it, but I've abandoned the idea pretty much outright... there are simply better powders for 9mm, and that's really the crux of it.
 
WST is reverse temp sensitivity. Meaning as temp goes up pressure/velocity drops. If you loads are on the light side it can cause problems. The fix is to bump the charge up 0.1g and test again with the ammo hot.

WST is all I use in 45ACP, for 9mm I use WSF.
 
Blue68f100 said:
WST is reverse temp sensitivity. Meaning as temp goes up pressure/velocity drops. If you loads are on the light side it can cause problems. The fix is to bump the charge up 0.1g and test again with the ammo hot.

WST is all I use in 45ACP, for 9mm I use WSF.
Click to expand...
That makes sense since temp went up and pressure drops, it could have led to the failure to return to battery not enough force to complete battery function. I had seen other folks state they utilize charges a tad higher than the max listed on the Hodgon site (4.3) for lead data. I'm using ACME 230gr coated bullets, so going up to 4.4 should cause issues. Some of these folks metnioned 4.7gr of WST, which is above max for lead bullets, but below the max for jacketed bullets. Since I'm using coated bullets I don't expect any leading issues, but I don't -as a general rule- load coated lead bullets using jacketed load data.

I'll have to give that a try and see how it performs. Recoil while using 4 grains of WST was very light. Too bad I don't have a way to chrono the rounds, but 4.3 - 4.4 grains won't put it much past 812fps or near 21,000 psi (max for 45 acp).

THX

CH
 
I’m a fan of WST in .45 for lighter loads, and it works in other calibers as well. As for 9mm, I’m to chicken to try it but others here do load it. There are lots of faster powders that publish data for 9mm so I’m sticking to them for time being. I have not experienced the temp sensitivity yet but understand it to be there. Good luck!
 
I went through 12 lbs of WST primarily in 9mm but also lots in .45 and a bunch of other calibers. Great stuff for low to midrange range and target loads, clean, meters well, and you can easily check the powder level due to the light gray color.

I won’t share my unpublished 9mm loads but if you google it or check the Brian enos forum you’ll find a lot of match shooters using it and there’s a general range of “accepted” loads.

I suppose since Winchester no longer publishes data for 9mm WST loads that should be enough for some people. I had zero issues and if I could find some more WST for a good price I’d do it again. YMMV
 
As others posted, WST is reverse temperature sensitive. BTW, here's a listing of temperature sensitive/reverse sensitive powders - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-7#post-10117881

Disclaimer: Use the following unpublished WST load at your own risk
1KPerDay said:
I won’t share my unpublished 9mm loads but if you google it or check the Brian enos forum you’ll find a lot of match shooters using it and there’s a general range of “accepted” loads.
Click to expand...
I think the reason why Hodgdon won't publish load data for 9mm with WST is because loads meeting power factor may require compressed charges and WST tends to be spiky at the top.

WST for 9mm has produced smallest groups for me followed by Target and BE-86. (I used longer OAL to not compress WST powder charge)

index.php
 
LiveLife said:
As others posted, WST is reverse temperature sensitive. BTW, here's a listing of temperature sensitive/reverse sensitive powders - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-7#post-10117881

Disclaimer: Use the following unpublished WST load at your own risk

I think the reason why Hodgdon won't publish load data for 9mm with WST is because loads meeting power factor may require compressed charges and WST tends to be spiky at the top.

WST for 9mm has produced smallest groups for me followed by Target and BE-86. (I used longer OAL to not compress WST powder charge)

index.php
Click to expand...
Compressed charges..... I haven't done any such type loading. WST meters really well and seems to take up more room inside the case over other powders such as CFE. Concerning the pics you provided, did those reloads require compressed charges?

I saw in the Hogdon reloading site, that using lead bullets puts the max charges at 4.3 while starting charges are at 4.0 (very small spread compared to other powders) . I will be setting up test loads at 4.4, which some folks on the Brian Enos site have indicated as a good load. I looked at the psi for a 4.3 WST load using 230gr LRN coated bullets. the PSI is at 16400 psi for 4.3gr of WST. Since the max psi (not going into the +p range of 23000 psi) is at 21000, adding a 10th of a grain above max will keep me below the max psi.

Based on what I have loaded so far, I don't expect to be in a compressed charge at 4.4gr of WST-there should still be plenty of room inside the case with 4.4gr of WST. I don't have the load software, but roughly looking at the numbers 16400/4.3 = 3813.95 (3814) per grain of WST. That indicates 3814 (rounded up) psi per grain or (3813.95/10) 382 (rounded) for every 10th of a grain. So 4.4 would yield 16781.395 (16792) psi which is below 21000 (max psi).

I read other folks indicating 4.7gr of WST with an OAL of 1.25 has yielded the best results. The issue is that they didn't indicate if they were using Jacketed or Lead bullets. I know I use coated bullets, but in following the best practices, I'll stick with Lead data and figures.

Another point that I learned was that using the OAL figures on the Hogdon site has resulted in cartridges that are seated too low as other users pointed out previously. Another user indicated that Hodgdon listed 1.200 for quite a number of their loads which is inaccurate. I looked in other reloading manuals and have since settled on 1.240-1.260 for 45acp. 1.250 is a good split on the OAL figures.

THX

CH
 
My current go-to load for 9mm is 4.0 gr WST under a 125 gr RNFP bullet that I cast.

Dead nuts accurate, soft shooting, burns clean, and smells great.

One thing to be aware of Crazy Horse. Pressures aren't linear. You can't ever say that X amount of powder will give Y amount of pressure.
 
Texas10mm said:
Pressures aren't linear. You can't ever say that X amount of powder will give Y amount of pressure.
Click to expand...

...particularly in something high pressure like the 9mm, which is one of the reasons I've become born-again on watching my OAL. Because I shoot full-power loads in 9mm, it's one of the reasons I'm getting away from faster powders.... like WST and TiteGroup... there.

Because the 9mm is such a small case, I don't really worry about a double-charge not being evident, even with something like TG... not like in the .45ACP coffee can... but I could see where the light color of WST would be a plus.
 
Crazy Horse said:
I looked at the psi for a 4.3 WST load using 230gr LRN coated bullets. the PSI is at 16400 psi for 4.3gr of WST. Since the max psi (not going into the +p range of 23000 psi) is at 21000, adding a 10th of a grain above max will keep me below the max psi.

(Snip)So 4.4 would yield 16781.395 (16792) psi which is below 21000 (max psi).
Click to expand...
This is a dangerous line of thinking FYI
 
6400/4.3 = 3813.95 (3814) per grain of WST. That indicates 3814 (rounded up) psi per grain or (3813.95/10) 382 (rounded) for every 10th of a grain. So 4.4 would yield 16781.395 (16792) psi which is below 21000 (max psi).
Click to expand...

The problem is pressure is not linear,
Not saying it is the case here but you could have an issue where
say X gr is (made up a number) 15000 PSI
X+.1 is 16000
X+.2 is 17250
x +.3 is 20000
x +.4 is 25000
I will have to see if I can find some pressure curve graphs (anybody else feel free to help me out here by posting a pressure curve, have to start work at 7)

You could reach a point where .1 gr more is the straw that broke the camels back.

You can't extrapolate pressure.....
 
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I don't disagree, but for jacketed bullets, the max WST is at 4.9 grains. The only reason I know that they typically give lower loads for lead is due to potential leading. Since I'm using Coated bullets, I don't expect problems with leading.

Is there another reason that Lead would have a lower maximum over jacketed data?

TIA
 
LiveLife said:
They are usually sized .001" larger.
Click to expand...

This alone could create more pressure. And, as stated above, pressure is not linear. 1/10th of a grain could raise pressure by 500 psi, but the next tenth could raise it by 1000 psi or more (random numbers to make a point).

Crazy Horse said:
I don't disagree, but for jacketed bullets, the max WST is at 4.9 grains. The only reason I know that they typically give lower loads for lead is due to potential leading.
Click to expand...

FYI the data you are referencing is not measured in "psi" but in "cup". I don't know the correlation (or if there even is one) between pounds per square inch vs. copper units pulverized, but I believe that cup measures lower than psi. Meaning 16,400 cup "could" be 18,000 or more when converted to psi.

Also be aware that the data you are looking at is not a recipe, it's what they got from their test equipment on that day using the components they chose to test. And those components can and do vary from lot to lot. Also consider "stacking" tolerances with components and the strength of your gun vs their test equipment.

I won't tell you not to go over max load data, that's your choice, but I will say that you should be careful if doing so and the results/consequences are on you whether good or bad.

Be safe and proceed with caution if you decide to continue.

chris
 
As IK says, there is plenty of empirical 9mm WST data out there, it is just not laboratory tested.

There were some old rules of thumb that treated powder-pressure-velocity in linear form for SMALL changes, but I no longer have the Vihtavuori pamphlet that based it on lab data. Of course you could buy Quickload and do the necessary fudging for straight wall cases.

It doesn't matter whether pressures are shown in CUP or pizeo psi, maximum is maximum on either scale and that should be your guide for all ordinary purposes.
 
Another thing to consider is lot to lot burn speed differences
found this as an example
upload_2020-6-15_12-2-38.png
So a 10% faster lot jumped it from 50740 to 59592 (note Quickload predicted #s not actual data)

One good reason to work up from scratch if changing lots of powders and loading MAX charges.
Always important to remember the MAX a loading manual got was for their lot of powder, with their batch of primers, brass, bullets, in their test setup on that day.
Some powders are temp sensitive, some burn faster when it is cooler (I know WSF does I believe WST is the same way) some burn faster when it is hotter.

Be safe out there.
 
Too bad we cannot contact Hogdon and find out why the limits for WST and 45acp were set at 4.3 for LRN and at 4.9 for jacketed.

Seeing as they put the OAL as 1.200 and having other members comment that length of i1.OAL200 s very short is interesting.

Fortunately for that situation there was other data that I could utilze and corraborate in seeing what other manufacturer came up with. It doesn't seem to be the case with WST as there is no data in Speer 15 edition manual or in the Lyman casting manual.

I just created a sample load using 4.3 gr of WST. Using LRN coated bullets. I may do you some jacketed 45acp bullets and load them at 4.7 gr of WST (.2 gr below max) to see how they feel on M&P. The 4.0 load was by far the lightest feeling load on the 45 of any powders I used.
 
Jim Watson said:
As IK says, there is plenty of empirical 9mm WST data out there, it is just not laboratory tested.

There were some old rules of thumb that treated powder-pressure-velocity in linear form for SMALL changes, but I no longer have the Vihtavuori pamphlet that based it on lab data. Of course you could buy Quickload and do the necessary fudging for straight wall cases.

It doesn't matter whether pressures are shown in CUP or pizeo psi, maximum is maximum on either scale and that should be your guide for all ordinary purposes.
Click to expand...

Older Winchester manuals and other older manuals have WST data for 9mm.
 
Blue32,
Thank You. I did some test loads using 4.3 grains of WST which is the max according to Hogdon. Based on the charts it's estimated at 812 fps on a 5 inch barrel. I'll be using a 4.25 inch barrel, so it will probably be slightly slower. going up a 10th of a grain should help with shooting oustide for extended periods in high heat.

4.0 grains of WST felt really light, very comfortable and easy to stay on target. I can see why they like using it for match shooting. How does 4.5 grains feel? closer to a standard 45 manufacturer load? I normally use CFE since I can use that powder on several calibers(809 fps est) , but I have noticed sparks every now and then with CFE. With WST I didn't notice any sparks, so that's a plus.

Too bad Hogdon only publishes for use on 45acp and 38 special ammo.

Still, thanks for sharing your experience with WST.

CH
 
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