XM12 Pistol

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otomik

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with all of this talk about the possible new XM8 Weapons system, which includes a 10-inch barreled PDW version i'm wondering what's going to happen to the role of the military pistol. the M4 isn't even that small and it was given to many vehicle crewmembers as a replacement for the M9, an M8 PDW would replace a lot more M9s.

will we be limited to 9mm?
we don't work as closely with NATO anymore since the fall of communism. will .40 or even .45 come back or will we go to some armor penetrating sub-calibre?

smaller and compact like the makarov or larger and more user friendly like the HK MP7?
 
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I can only hope it will be a .45.

I have read two different after action reporst from recent military actions and everyone who owned and used a 9mm said that it simply wasn't enough.

My hopes are for the HK USP .45 :)
 
XM9 trials resulted in the M9 or the Beretta 92FS
then there was some contraversy that resulted in the XM10 trials
a need for a compact 9mm resulted in the XM11 trials and the M11 or SIG P-228
so XM12 is the next available US military pistol stock number (i think).
 
i know someone is going to say it so why don't i just get it out of the way.

1911

something like a Wilson Combat KZ-45 would be suitable. perhaps with an Para-Ordnance style double action only trigger. It would overcome some of the problems the army had with the 1911 (too heavy, not idiot-proof).

Still i wonder if people are going to have a problem with lack of penetration and frankly even in FMJ .45ACP sucks against body armor. OTOH perhaps all these sub-caliber armor-piercing pistol cartridges are anticipating a problem that has yet to arrive (gun companies exagerating the proliferation of body armor problem in an effort to sell new equipment?).

Food for thought: the french gendarmerie just ordered 230,000 SIG SP-2022 (basically a SIG Pro 9mm with better rails and hooked trigger guard), the largest single order for a pistol since WWII.
 
it needs to be a sig in .40 or .45 for the every day infantryman guys, and a 1911 for the guys who shoot pistols for a living. There also needs to be a 9mm or .40 j frame issued to every combat arms soldier, airman or marine.
 
Okay, the M8 is basically a G36, and the "PDW" is a G36K. Not quite a PDW in my mind. As a future tanker, I hope we adopt the HK PDW that fires the 4.6 mm spoontipped round.

HK is building a factory in the US...

I thinkt he USP .45 is simply too large for an "everyone" pistol. My dad has one, and it is on the verge of too big for me (6'3", 245)

I am really hoping for single stack Glock 10mm. .40 level loads for people who can't handle the real stuff, and DoubleTap 200 grain FMJs for badasses. The girp would be slimmer than a 1911, it would be reliable, safe, not complex, lightweight and plenty powerful.
 
I hate to throw cold water on a good fantasy...

But there is no program to replace the M9. There is a trend to 1911 type pistols in certain units, but the big army (Navy, Marines and AF) will continue to use the M9 and M11 for the immediate future.

PDWs are a solution looking for a problem. Too big to be as easily carried as conventional handguns and too under powered to be useful as a carbine. The 4.7 rounds have unsatisfactory terminal effects.

Jeff
 
Technically, it's a carbine. It would receive, perhaps, an M5 designation? Without a stock, they might classify it as a submachinegun along the lines of the Grease Gun. That would make it the, hehehe, M4 submachine gun! How's that for confusion. It would be almost as bad as having the M1 rifle and M1 Carbine with no relationship to each other.
 
Because it is accurate, controllable, will defeat body armor, and thw whole package weighs something like 2 ounces more than a loaded Beretta. I still want a real weapon (M2), but it beats the hell out of a 9mm that is less than reliable.
 
I forgot to say the USP compact for people with smaller hands, to go along with the fullsized USPs. :D

Also Otomik... I ask why you said M12 cause the next battle rifle is going to be the M8....... How do you get M8 after M16?

Maybe it's going up from M4? I don't know.
 
Also, designation does not necessarily prgress numerically. Otherwise, how did we ever end up at the M249 SAW, the M240B and C, or the M1 tank?
 
forgot to say the USP compact for people with smaller hands
Click to expand...

USP compacts are just as thick as the full sized USP. people with smaller hands have just as much trouble with them.


Who got the idea that chopping a half inch off the butt of a pistol that's too thick makes it more suitable for the small handed?
 
The PDW is the smallest package that "might get the job done".
Why not choose the most powerful package that you can carry?

This reminds me of thread-titles that ask "What's the smallest caliber suitable for deer?" instead of "What's the most effective caliber/weapon combo for deer that I can still comfortably carry around and shoot?"

Sucessfully engaging the enemy with an MP7/HK PDW at 200m is unrealistic. And at 25m I'd want much more stopping power than a 26gr bullet with less energy than a 9x19 can offer.
If I'd be a tanker I wouldn't want anything less than a G36C or even a G3KA4 (ammo commonality with coax and AA).
 
The thing is this: these are not really intended for use in combat. If I want to kill somehting in combat, I'll use my 120mm, my .50 or either of the two 240s. We already carry a conversion kit that allows us to change the loader's gun form a 240C to a 240B if we need serious portable firepower.

The PDW would not replace the M4s, M8s, etc. It would replace the Berettas. Sorry, but 100 rounds of 4.6 mm, which can be fired accurately to 100m at least, beats teh hell out of 45 rounds of 9mm, which has inferior wound ballistics givne the 115 grain FMJ bullet.

As soon as I can pull rank, I think I will just throw a SAW in the basket with a few cans of 5.56 and call it even. I love that weapon...
 
The thing is this: these are not really intended for use in combat.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and the M4 Sherman was not intended to be used against German tanks...

Too bad that American tankers couldn't sue the high command or the manufacturer when they had to use their Sherman for fighting tanks.

WHEN do you think you'd have to use your personal weapon instead of your tanks M256/M2/M240? I'd guess when you have been hit by an anti-tank team. What will you then use your MP7 for? For fighting your way out of an anti-tank team's killing zone. Something I'd call combat.
 
Okay, I am not sure which Army youa re thinking of, but tanks do not cruise around on their own. I open terrain, it is a minimum of a platoon, yes, four tanks, operating together. If your tank is disabled in such terrain, where exactly are you supposed to fight your way to? I think I'd rather sit tight, call for fire, and have my compadres whip up on the anti-tank team.

In a city, tanks go nowhere without infantry.

I am not saying I would not prefer M4s for everyone, but it isn't going to happen. I would certainly prefer the PDW to an M9.
 
I think combat tupperware is inevitable. Weight, reliability, simplicity, maintenance. Question is the caliber. When I was in the .45 was king. I would not be comfortable with the 9mm. We need to grow some larger hands.
 
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