Ya better get an attorney

[45CalPal]

When I rebuilt my AR,I chose the full auto bc just out of sheer hope to later down the road aquire the other componets to make it full auto.
(of course I would follow the dumb law and register it with the atf)

These trigger offerings are a step in the right direction, but in the end will evenyually require the stamp and registration as well...

 

[45CalPal]

I would not have passed that e-mail on without complete verification

Seems to be a theme these days for attention.. In hopes each time the share will result in thier immediate fame...

 

[kje54]

Seems to be a theme these days for attention.. In hopes each time the share will result in thier immediate fame...

For some it's probably that but I suspect for most it nothing more than Confirmation Bias: "See, see, I told you so!"

 

[45CalPal]

I can see that as a posability, but these days with all the social media craze of having to get attention or the perverbial "15 min of fame" has just been taken to the extreme.

 

[JohnKSa]

For what its worth, if they go for this, they'll probably sweep up anything with trigger slap. So watch out, owners of AKs, and CZ75's with the original trigger.

As long as you can't hold pressure on the trigger and get continued firing, I don't see there being a legal issue with the law written the way it currently is.

These trigger offerings are a step in the right direction, but in the end will evenyually require the stamp and registration as well...

If the BATF is taking the stance that they are machine guns (and it does seem like they have a good point given how they operate), then they can not be registered without a change in the law. The machine gun registry was closed by law in 1986.

 

[mjsdwash]

I don't think this is the case at all. If you keep constant pressure on a CZ or AK and get trigger slap, you still have to consciously release pressure on the trigger then reapply pressure before the gun will fire again.

The FRT forces the trigger into the reset position in spite of your pressure on the trigger to the rear, then allows the trigger to move rearward again once the bolt has gone into battery. The pressure your finger exerts on the trigger is constant, just as the pressure exerted on a full auto trigger is constant. The only difference is the amount of trigger movement during the action cycle period.

As a thought experiment, tie one end of a string around the trigger, tie the other end of the string to an appropriate weight that will activate the trigger, load the rifle, point the rifle vertically so that the weight pulls the trigger back, and see what happens.

With the FRT, the gun will continue to cycle until the ammunition is exhausted, although the weight will bob up and down. It is my belief that the ATF will contend that since constant pressure on the trigger results in more than one shot, the FRT constitutes a machine gun.

Rare Breed (and Wide Open Triggers, another FRT manufacturer) contend that since the trigger was forced forward into the reset position, the subsequent rearward movement of the trigger after the bolt goes into battery and releases the trigger locking bar constitutes a separate function of the trigger as defined by 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b).

Here is an animation of Rare Breed's FRT in action, so you decide for yourself if the shooter is making one function of the trigger, or separate actions for each shot fired.

I don't disagree with you, but the ATF will really be reaching deep into the regulatory law bag to do so without some justification. That falls to mechanical, and while I'm not worried about enforcement, I am worried about any firearm that cams the trigger forward after firing to be written into some "bi-partisan compromise", if the ATF even bothers. If they can point to a mechanical function, it will cover anything and everything.

 

[JohnKSa]

That's the kind of trouble you can get into if the law is revised. As it currently stands the situation is that they are not going to allow anything that will keep firing from constant pressure on the trigger. That's pretty much been the rule all along and that's consistent with the current law as it is written and commonly interpreted so I don't see this as being anything new or concerning.

If people keep playing around right at the edge of the law trying to see how they can circumvent it without actually breaking it, it's inevitable that sometimes a product is going to end up on the wrong side of the line. That's what happened here--that's what happened with bump-stocks that incorporated return springs. That means that the BATF isn't going to have any trouble justifying their actions under the current law and therefore there is, in my opinion, unlikely to be any push for a new law, a revision of the old one, or even a changed/expanded interpretation of the old one.

 

[DMW1116]

A lot of the rub with ATF is how they will send out a letter saying something is ok then change their mind. This happened with bump stocks and braces and now is happening with the FRTs. The WOT has a letter saying it’s ok. Rare breed reviewed it with their attorneys and decided their version was ok too. Based on that both companies started production. ATF later changed their minds when a new presidential administration was in office and said “Gotcha Now”. Remember law enforcement is allowed to lie to get a conviction. Defendants are not allowed to lie to stop a conviction. Seems like there should be an entrapment angle for the defense.

 

[berettaprofessor]

If you want a SBR, fully auto, etc. then go through the application process or lobby Congress to change the law

I think "registered" is the part they want to avoid....so there's not a list somewhere to grab later.

 

[plainsdrifter]

Saw a full auto bolt carrier group for sale and thought; Is this purchase going to raise a flag? I bet it does.

 

[danez71]

From my understanding of the product, that you don't release the trigger but continue to hold pressure on the trigger, and that it requires a full auto bolt carrier, I wonder if the 2 bolded parts are the crux of ATFs dismay....?

• Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger
• The frame or receiver of any such weapon
• Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or
  
• Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

 

[Ethan Verity]

When I rebuilt my AR,I chose the full auto bc just out of sheer hope to later down the road aquire the other componets to make it full auto.
(of course I would follow the dumb law and register it with the atf)

These trigger offerings are a step in the right direction, but in the end will evenyually require the stamp and registration as well...

That's assuming you are a Class 3 FFL, and plan on maintaining that status for as long as you will own it. Otherwise, you can never build/own a new full auto. The only way a citizen can own one is if it were registered and made before May 19, 1986. Since there is that cut off date, you're looking at $30,000 price range for those ARs these days... plus the $200 tax stamp!

 

[Gordon]

Why can't folks be happy with learning to quickly pull triggers when aligning sights on targets ? What about "Split times" in the fraction of a second where bullets actually hit a target ? If you want noise and quick blasts then there always are packs of firecrackers to light. Otherwise buy a $200 stamp , these days that would be a couple magazines of ammo prices .
I want to concentrate on keeping the darn semi auto formats legal !

 

[MistWolf]

First, FR triggers require two functions to fire one shot. It fires only when pressed. Before it can be fired again, it must be released. The press and the release each count as one function.

Second, the trigger is reset by the movement of the BCG.

Third, if you keep pressure on the trigger (pin the trigger to the rear) after pressing it to fire, the trigger will not reset.

 

[danez71]

First, FR triggers require two functions to fire one shot. It fires only when pressed. Before it can be fired again, it must be released. The press and the release each count as one function.

Second, the trigger is reset by the movement of the BCG.

Third, if you keep pressure on the trigger (pin the trigger to the rear) after pressing it to fire, the trigger will not reset.

In the video on page 1 post #24 drop Rare Breed Trigger it seems to describe it differently.

The video animation and narration explains the mil spec trigger and at about the 1:15 mark of which is says the shooter can continue to hold the trigger back or release the pressure on the trigger allowing for reset.


It specifically says that thier product is different because as the bolt cocks the hammer it forces the reset and pushes the finger forward at about the 2:05 mark.

The video seems to make a point that differences is that the shooter doesn't need to release the trigger in order for it to be reset because the finger is pushed forward as the bolt reward motion forces it to happen.

 

[dogtown tom]

About every two years someone cooks up something like this, be it a slide fire bump stock or multiple types of trigger mechanisms.

I think it’s only a matter of time before a law is passed banning anything that is designed or capable of mimicking fully automatic fire in any way. The currrent NFA definition is easily skirted and is easy fodder for loopholes and they really don’t like that.

Like Jerry Miculek?
At some point you are going to realize that it has nothing to do with loopholes, skirting the law or mimicking....its because they are guns. Semi autos will be next. Then lever action rifles, then revolvers, then air rifles.

 

[dogtown tom]

When I rebuilt my AR,I chose the full auto bc just out of sheer hope to later down the road aquire the other componets to make it full auto.
(of course I would follow the dumb law and register it with the atf)..

Tell us what law would allow that.
I ask because a bunch of us have been under the impression that the machine gun registry closed in 1986.

 

[cc-hangfire]

Bump fire stocks, "arm braces", binary triggers,etc, etc. I don't think "we" do ourselves any favors when we try to find technicalities and workarounds to skirt NFA laws...

Let me offer another perspective- while I have no interest in bump stocks, arm braces, FRT’s, etc, I applaud the firearms industry’s innovation in finding these technicalities and workarounds! If not for these innovations, anti-2A groups would be advancing their agenda against normal firearms - like “assault weapons”.

Keep innovating! Keep pushing the limits and finding the technicalities! Play offense!

 

[MistWolf]

Let me offer another perspective- while I have no interest in bump stocks, arm braces, FRT’s, etc, I applaud the firearms industry’s innovation in finding these technicalities and workarounds! If not for these innovations, anti-2A groups would be advancing their agenda against normal firearms - like “assault weapons”.

Keep innovating! Keep pushing the limits and finding the technicalities! Play offense!

This guy gets it. No hands wringing, no apologizing. Just pushing back to reclaim our liberties lost to appeasement and “compromise”

 

[BreechFace]

Glad to see some people get it!

I suppose everyone else is against tax "loopholes" as well.....*crickets*

The government closes "loopholes" through expending political capital, money spent and distraction away from other greater 2A causes, only to end up where we were before the "loophole" is a win for me.

And you know what we may just start winning the ability to keep these "loopholes" or what I would refer to as "exercising freedom of ingenuity and repulsion of statism."

My use of quotes "," around loophole is on purpose, we do ourselves a disservice as free Americans using their drummed up terms that slight our freedoms and just another stone cast at the idea that, they serve our purposes, not the other way around.

On the other hand, maybe it's a good thing to keep them busy with. These triggers are kind of like bump stocks, not very practical for the everyman. If they didn't have these triggers to contend with your tax dollars would be used to screw with the stuff people actually care about. Let's them look like they are doing something about the "problem". JB can have it worked into his SOU address as a big win in his war against gun owners.....

Dear everyone:

FOLLOWING THE LAW IS NOT A "LOOPHOLE".

Sincerely, Non-hypocrisy.

Like Jerry Miculek?
At some point you are going to realize that it has nothing to do with loopholes, skirting the law or mimicking....its because they are guns. Semi autos will be next. Then lever action rifles, then revolvers, then air rifles.

Let me offer another perspective- while I have no interest in bump stocks, arm braces, FRT’s, etc, I applaud the firearms industry’s innovation in finding these technicalities and workarounds! If not for these innovations, anti-2A groups would be advancing their agenda against normal firearms - like “assault weapons”.

Keep innovating! Keep pushing the limits and finding the technicalities! Play offense!

This guy gets it. No hands wringing, no apologizing. Just pushing back to reclaim our liberties lost to appeasement and “compromise”

 

[1911 guy]

Looking for ways to circumvent the obvious intent of the law is not following the law

So when a lawyer picks apart the words and phrases used in a law, ignoring the supporting documentation surrounding the laws passage and defining it's intent, that's just good lawyering. But when the Average Joe does it, that's the end of the world. Does that about sum it up?

Look, all of us here are probably in favor of avoiding legal problems that would make our lives miserable and possibly jeopardize our ability to engage in a hobby we enjoy. And personally I stopped shooting full auto when taxpayers stopped buying my ammo. But remember that binary, forced reset, etc. triggers all got approval letters from the ATF who then changed their mind.

 

[JohnKSa]

So when a lawyer picks apart the words and phrases used in a law, ignoring the supporting documentation surrounding the laws passage and defining it's intent, that's just good lawyering. But when the Average Joe does it, that's the end of the world. Does that about sum it up?

If, by "sum it up", you mean that it's a strawman in at least two different ways, then yes, that about "sums it up".

1. I never said that It's good for anyone to ignore the intent of the law, whether they're an attorney or not.
2. I never said it's "the end of the world" when someone does ignores the obvious intent of the law or tries to circumvent it, I just said it's not following the law.

But remember that binary, forced reset, etc. triggers all got approval letters from the ATF who then changed their mind.

Binary triggers are legal, I'm not aware that any true forced reset triggers ever got approval letters. You may be thinking about the approval for the 3MR assisted reset trigger which does a partial reset but still requires the shooter to complete the reset manually (and is still legal).

Even if they had approved forced reset triggers, we've seen the BATF get it wrong before and/or change their minds--we know it happens and we know what happens when it does. The people who thought they were getting away with something are the ones that suffer, not the BATF.

 

[hoardingthemanual]

Let me offer another perspective- while I have no interest in bump stocks, arm braces, FRT’s, etc, I applaud the firearms industry’s innovation in finding these technicalities and workarounds! If not for these innovations, anti-2A groups would be advancing their agenda against normal firearms - like “assault weapons”.

Keep innovating! Keep pushing the limits and finding the technicalities! Play offense!

I agree. It is unfortunate that unjust laws make gun owners turn on each other and stifle innovation.

I think about another victim of the ATF’s nonsense. There was a gentleman who made solvent traps that were then classified as suppressors. As a result, the business owner committed suicide; hell of “collateral damage” on the ATF’s hands.

 

[N555]

Everyone should have an attorney.
I get told stupid stuff like "if you are not doing anything illegal you don't need a lawyer". Anyone half way paying attention knows the government has been trying to make law abiding gun owners into criminals for the last few years.

 

[AlexanderA]

Everyone should have an attorney.

Lawyers are not "one size fits all." For example, a divorce lawyer or a tax lawyer is not going to do you much good if you need a criminal-defense attorney.

And "having a lawyer" means tying up a bunch of money in retainer fees. These typically do not draw interest.

I will agree that you better get a lawyer pretty damn quickly if you are confronted with a real legal problem. (The biggest mistake some people make is a do-it-yourself divorce.)