"You match the description of two burglers..." As reason to request a consent search.

[grislyatoms]

I've been through the "you match the description of" scenario only once.

I had just received my DL and went to pick up my friend at work in Mom's car (a rather sedate Pontiac Grand Prix) for his lunch break. Went through the greasy spoon drive through and parked in front of the store where he worked to eat lunch.

A few minutes later a police car comes at high speed across the parking lot towards us and parks in front of us. My friend and I both thought "What the...?"

Cop comes walking over kinda hunched down to see in the windows (I guess) and asks for DL, registration, etc. After checking registration, he comes back and asks what we are doing.

"Eating lunch"

My friend asked him if there was a problem. "You match the description of" was the response, then he left. Never asked to search anything.

When I told my Mom what happened, she said he probably thought we were smoking pot or something, and since he couldn't smell it, he didn't pursue it any further.

As for searching without a warrant, the answer is always no.

 

[Monkeyleg]

ctdonath: "True, most people will never have a problematic encounter with police in their entire life - despite the flurry of laws designed to make sure someone is guilty of something most of the time."

For some reason I attract problematic encounters with police. Detained for suspicion of rape (suspect description black male early 20's; I'm white). Suspicion of murder (suspect described as wearing black leather jacket; that really narrowed down the search). Suspicion of being suspicious (eight years later, I still have no idea why I was held). And a whole host of other ocassions.

Whether I would consent to a search or not would depend upon how much of a hurry I was in. If not in any particular hurry, then refuse and plan on being detained for an hour or so while the officer(s) try to find a way to search.

 

[Powderman]

Perhaps we should disband all the police agencies in the country and go back to letting everyone work things out for themselves. The life some of you must lead worried every single minute that your own employees are going to break down your door at O-dark 30 and kill you and your family because a CI gave the police your address by mistake, or afraid to leave your house because your employees are going to make up a reason to detain you while you innocently go about your lawful business and plant evidence in your car so they can lie to you in an attempt to get you to consent to search so they can make an arrest and get the statistics up..... How do you even get out of bed in the morning knowing you live in such an oppressive , freedom stifling world??

THANK YOU!!!

 

[Art Eatman]

thorn726, one thing I learned by watching this old world through some 20 countries and the best part of a half-dozen decades: If you "look different", if you don't look like you're part of some usual scene, you're gonna get rousted.

That doesn't make it right, but that's the way it is pretty much everywhere and everywhen, as near as I can tell.

Back around 1966, a biker buddy of mine, some 6'-2" and 230 or so pounds, balding and with longish hair, said, "Y'know, Art, when ya look like me and ride a Harley, you're gonna see the inside of a lot of jails."

Everybody's got their own thing goin', I reckon...

Art

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Kamicosmos

I'd wave my hand around and say 'These aren't the thieves you're looking for. Move along, Move along."

Do not even try your Jedi Mind Tricks on me Buster!

You match the description of two burglers

Two at once? What's that, some kind of fat guy joke?

 

[Deavis]

It's one thing to lie to a suspect with "I've got your fingerprints off the rock you threw through the car window to get in and steal that purse." or "Your buddy is in the other room telling my partner the entire story, why don't you fess up now, and I can talk to the states attorney about how cooperative you've been." It's another thing altogether to make up a story about a robbery to coerce someone into letting you search them.

Really? How is different? In both situations you are coercing someone into doing something *you* want by lying. I can't wait to hear how you justify one lie over another.

 

[Hammerhead]

Counter-culture merit badge?

I don't know what it is, but some people seem to think that it is a badge of honor to be "hasseled by the MAN". (sp?)

I used to do some whitewater kayaking, and we were just getting set up at the parking lot at the Youghiogheny. A guy comes over to talk to us. He has long hair, scraggly beard, tie dye shirt, all the trappings. He is outraged at the treatment by the Park Ranger. He said (and I quote!), "He had his gun in one hand, a flashlight in the other and he slapped me across the face!" I started looking for the 3-armed ranger, but I never found him.

I should also add that we had just talked with several of the Rangers, and they were very nice and helpful. I had a beard and long hair at the time, so they weren't just picking on hairy types.

We chatted about the river for a bit, and he goes back to his van, and immediatly turned on the loudest stereo system that I had ever heard in a vehicle (It was the mid 80's). Not too impressive today, but it still shook windows a hundred feet away. I guess he wanted to meet a few more Rangers... and he got his wish!

I dunno, seems like some people aren't happy unless they think that they are being oppressed? Monty Python fans?

Just to keep this gun related, what should I carry in case I have to shoot a hole in the bottom of my kayak if I get pinned?

Regards,
Hammerhead

 

[thorn726]

thorn726, one thing I learned by watching this old world through some 20 countries and the best part of a half-dozen decades: If you "look different", if you don't look like you're part of some usual scene, you're gonna get rousted.

That doesn't make it right, but that's the way it is pretty much everywhere and everywhen, as near as I can tell.

Back around 1966, a biker buddy of mine, some 6'-2" and 230 or so pounds, balding and with longish hair, said, "Y'know, Art, when ya look like me and ride a Harley, you're gonna see the inside of a lot of jails."

Everybody's got their own thing goin', I reckon...

i know i take it all with a grain of salt., the funny part is the whole NY incident had a LOt more to do with the cop's ego than it did me being an outsider, and i DID kinda ask for it.

i have also been stopped for totally legitimate reasons in weird places , WY, FL, all over and the police were very polite.

I was let off hitchiking in FL once in a REal bad spot on the freeway. the police were right on us, screaming at drver and me "do you know he oculd be a murderer?" (hehe the driver had finished tellnig me he was a parachuting santa at a mall earlier) . any way i told the police "i am seeing the country, i hitched here from OR (which was true). they were blown away. told me which way to go, said be safe.

THAT is the way it goes more often than not.

in UT it was "we got a call You were lying down over there"(not) ok sure whatever, i will walk the heck out of your town. thank god good people found me a place that night.
but just about everywhere else it is
"you arent supposed to be here" or " you got a light out" and no problem.
it is totally understandable they want my Id since its a small town and i am outsider passing thru.

but in the town i grew up for 19 years?

like i said, it was comedy more than anything else. they knew i was a local, they just never get outsiders and finally got the chance to be small town jerks! heheheheh

 

[Jeff White]

Deavis said:

Quote:
It's one thing to lie to a suspect with "I've got your fingerprints off the rock you threw through the car window to get in and steal that purse." or "Your buddy is in the other room telling my partner the entire story, why don't you fess up now, and I can talk to the states attorney about how cooperative you've been." It's another thing altogether to make up a story about a robbery to coerce someone into letting you search them.


Really? How is different? In both situations you are coercing someone into doing something *you* want by lying. I can't wait to hear how you justify one lie over another.

It's really quite simple. Telling a suspect you have already arrested that you've got his fingerprints on some evidence or that his buddy is in the other room spilling his guts is a legitimate interrogation technique and has been found by the courts to be legal.

Making up a story about someone looking like an armed robbery suspect as an excuse to detain them, when there in fact had not been an armed robbery and the subject in fact didn't match any part of the description if there had been an armed robbery would not be legal. Any evidence you obtained by a ruse like that that would most likely be rightfully suppressed.

There is a big difference between using a ruse to trick a suspect you've already lawfully detained into revealing evidence and making up a story to unlawfully detain a suspect.

The police just can't stop and detain people without a reason. So making up a story about an armed robbery is illegal. However if you're already lawfully detaining a subject then using a ruse to get them to reveal information is legal.

Jeff

 

[R.H. Lee]

It doesn't make sense that a LEO would immediately jump to a request for consent to search. I would think he'd be more interested in asking questions first. I'm confident that after a couple minutes of questioning, he would have no further interest in me, and no need or desire to search my vehicle.

 

[DRZinn]

We chatted for while, and as they turned to leave said "oh, I suppose we should look at your ID"

Very Columbo of them.

 

[Old Partner]

Attention

Cops are generally the most worthless sucks on earth! Think about it, why would any sane person want to be in the position where the general public will not want to socialize with you and the rest would be happy to see you dead? I know that I would not want to have any social contact with them. You might want to notice that you never see one of them at a party simply because they are not invited. They are only comfortable with their own kind or the ones they interact with everyday. Not my kind...

 

[Dbl0Kevin]

You know in real life most people in our country have almost no contact with the police unless they are the victim of a crime, commit a traffic offense or are unfortunate enough to be involved in a traffic accident. Sometimes the paranoia I see here really amazes me.

Yeah I've been noticing the same trend around here. Sad.

Cops are generally the most worthless sucks on earth! Think about it, why would any sane person want to be in the position where the general public will not want to socialize with you and the rest would be happy to see you dead? I know that I would not want to have any social contact with them. You might want to notice that you never see one of them at a party simply because they are not invited. They are only comfortable with their own kind or the ones they interact with everyday. Not my kind...

This is just classy right here. Funny I get invited to parties and to go out all the time by non-cops. Ever think it's the kind of parties that YOU go to as to why you never see a cop there?

As for the issue at hand it would be pretty stupid to make up a reason to ask for a consent to search. If I found myself having to make up a reason to search a car I'd have to ask myself why I'd want to search it in the first place. If I had a suspicion about something else I'd ask for consent anyway since you don't need PC to ASK for consent.

 

[PATH]

Cops are people too. Most are decent people. Some are jerks but then every profession has a few, yes?

The officer does not want to get sued and so he must walk a fine line. I cannot remember anyone I know being asked if their car could be searched.

The cops in my town are a pretty good bunch with the exception of one or two jerks. Can't say I have met a "jack booted thug"!

My nephews are cops, my best friend is a retired cop, and my brother is a retired cop. I go shooting with a bunch of fellas and many of them are cops. Most cops are just folks like everyone else. Please don't let the unprofessional behavior of some paint a whole profession. Remember that the "cops" are the good guys.

 

[Greg Bell]

Cops are no different than anyone else. Most are moronic, petty and corrupt--just like most of the other folks that inhabit this foul rock.

Of course, the solution to this whole mess is to prohibit police from intentionally lying to subjects. It may catch a few of the first time morons, but it turns a lot of career criminals into statues when they are questioned. A person should be able to trust the police, whether the policeman thinks he is guilty or not.



You want to search my car? Sure, just don't look in the trunk!

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Cops are generally the most worthless sucks on earth! Think about it, why would any sane person want to be in the position where the general public will not want to socialize with you and the rest would be happy to see you dead? I know that I would not want to have any social contact with them. You might want to notice that you never see one of them at a party simply because they are not invited. They are only comfortable with their own kind or the ones they interact with everyday. Not my kind...

 

[artherd]

Statistics mean nothing when "it" happens to YOU.

Isn't this the truth. Perhaps I should add, this has HAPPENED to me, at least 3 times. Each time, I said "NO, you may not search my car, am I free to go?" 20 min later, I was gone. I did not belive in any of those cases, that the officers were being truthful, for a variety of reasons.

1) Plenty of radio chatter about everything EXCEPT alleged burgulry.

2) Checked the newspaper next day, also nothing. (local PD's 911 calls are printed in the paper.)

3) Both called and Sent a certified letter, requesting police report or incident number on ANY burglery that evening. Nothing.


Am I still paranoid? How many more times does this need to happen? How many trumped up charges against me do I need to force a judge to dismiss before my concerns are 'legitimate' ?


Art- I am glad you are an older man living in texas., and have either forgotten or been lucky enough to never realize how different your expxierences with LE are versus those of an 18-odd year old white male in this day and age in California.

Let me spell it out for you, I would have gone to jail if I had done what you did.


Jeff White- Maybe we should instead just dispense with Reasonable Suspicion, and Probable Cause instead?

 

[artherd]

The police just can't stop and detain people without a reason. So making up a story about an armed robbery is illegal. However if you're already lawfully detaining a subject then using a ruse to get them to reveal information is legal.

Matching the description is rarely used as a reason for the initiation of contact. I was usually stoped for making an 'illegal U'turn' or "not signaling' or the like.

Funny that at 24 now that I drive a 7-series BMW, having ditched the old sports car, I rarely get the same treatment? (unless I am in my truck, but that is another story.)



Old Partner- your statements are innane and not High Road material.

I actually know several members of Law Enforcement I respect a great deal. They have been guests at my parties, shooting buddies, etc. and I would trust them with my life. It incesses me all the more that individuals exist that would tarnish the name of the profession of choice of my friends.

 

[Art Eatman]

Sorry, Old Partner, but I guess that I've been a lot luckier than you. I've casually met a bunch of cops and had a cuppa coffee and a bit of BS, and been stopped on the highway and all that pidddly-diddly stuff--and no problems.

One of our local deputies, "Double Wide", was pretty good at the local horseshoe pit. Another one was known for the extremely high quality of his reamings of over-bearing DEA guys. Our newest one wants me to do some work on his 1911. Our long time resident deputy is a regular and popular member of the Coffee Club at the "Straight Store" and I've known him since he was a pup.

Sheriff Jim Wilson's among the Good Guys. I've met some of our LEO moderators and they're welcome at my house any time--and a couple have stayed for some hunting.

Now, while the ex-Sheriff of Presidio County wasn't known for hassling people, he IS doing life without parole for a metric ton of pure cocaine. Every barrel has its bad apple.

Art

 

[sm]

I had not had my DL long and went to get some groceries and meds, I had mom's car, 3 sibs and no dad at home. The vehicle I was in matched that of a Liquor store robbery where shots had been fired at a LEO.

My vehicle was pulled over. When a Trooper pulls you over it is NOT a good idea to reach onto passenger side floorboard to show the groceries in the sack. 870s being pumped I was accustomed to - I was not accustomed to hearing from the muzzle end however.

I was pulled over a second time. " I understand the situation, here is a note from Officer so and so. I know you are extemely busy - could someone follow me home - to make sure I get there?" An Officer did just that. Another set of flashing lights -third time now..." He is okay, or he will be once I get him home" the officer told the other one...just making sure nothing was up.

I have had this happen a few times more. Why couldn't my mom get a vehicle that BGs wouldn't use?

Funny thing is - I quit getting pulled over when I quit drinking in '84. I caused a lot of my own problems.

Now I drove sober plenty of times - I wasn't drying my car [ good one Art ] I kept having accelarator linkages getting stuck. My "wife/ Fiance'/ GF/ neighbor" was having contractions...headed to the hosptial...

I have worked with LEO. Like any business there are some bad representatives. There are some real characters too.

" What are doing flying low at 100 mph Steve?" I'm running late for <dove quail, duck...hunting>..." You need a front door, I'll call ahead and tell 'em your flying low" , or " get out of here - don't want you late".

I actually "hit on" a Lady UC , and got into a bar fight with another male UC . Situation was getting real serious and I was asked to go in and get them out - got us all thrown in the back of a squad car..."taken in"...

Now a lot of folks are retired I used to hang with in LEO circles, moved away. I don't do the work I used to. I keep a low profile, drive a regular truck, and for the most part behave myself.

Last time I was pulled over , it was one of the folks that had retired, up visiting, having lunch and riding in a unmarked truck. "figured that was you - same truck huh? C'mon and have lunch with us". Folks probably thought all kinds of stuff - me getting pulled over on the freeway that day.

I wondered why that truck pulled alongside, dropped back and hit the lights..."didn't want to pull the wrong fella over..."

 

[Greg Bell]

I once got pulled over driving in my old "Cutlass Supreme" driving through a crappy neighborhood (mine!). Buzz cut jumped out of his car, Glock 22 drawn and proceeded to point it at my face. Luckily, it has been my practice to place my hands outside the window of my vehicle for years. When he saw I wasn't who he was looking for he re-holstered.

I also noticed that Tackleberry had his finger on the trigger. Of course, the guy he was looking for had just shot somebody to death, so I can understand.

 

[R.H. Lee]

One of our local deputies, "Double Wide",

aka "Tiny"?

 

[Molon Labe]

I wouldn't consent to a search without a request in writing

Actually, you should never verbally consent to a search even if they have a warrant. (After all, if they have a warrant, then they don't need your consent. So why consent?) So even if they have a warrant, tell them, "I do not consent to a search," and don't get in their way when they search. This might protect you in the case they screw up.

 

[Art Eatman]

RileyMc, he hired in and instantly got the nickname. Me, I always thought "Road Block" might have been reasonable, also. Big ol' boy: Around 6'-3' with a 46 waist. Not suffering from malnutrition.

, Art

 

[thorn726]

i hate to agree , but old Partner, that was not very nice.

as someone who generally cant stand the police, even i have to admit it's really about 10 percent of them that are the problem (more in some depts).
i often ask police questions, have short conversations, and some even sit at the cafe with us, and are actually OK people.
Heck, they've helped me out of jams, and recoverd my stolen motorcycle plate (ooo so glad they busted that jerk)

we have a very socially interactive area telegraph ave, where everyone, freaks, homeless, regular people all hang out, so there is a constant police presence.

a few of them are ballbreaker jerks , but most are just doing their job and are actually quite friendly and helpful.

it is also funny how now , even though i am a total hippy looking person,. driving a BIG work/dump truck , hiring homeless workers, the police here treat me a LOT different.



Of course, the people of Berkeley had to full on RIOT on them 3 or 4 times before they started being this cool.....