You WILL get scared!

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musick

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My post is mainly aimed at civilians, without any "real" training in a "shoot/dont shoot" scenario.

This topic: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=454833

inspired me to tell my story. Its not something I share with too many people, but I suppose the anonymity of forums makes me more comfortable. Ive thought through all of the "what-ifs" a million different ways. Skip to the bottom if you want to get to the point of this post.

Anyway...

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I managed a fast food restaurant a number of years ago, which was in an area I considered "questionable" area after dark. Not only that, but I regularly carried large sums of cash to a nearby bank. I requested and received permission from the owner to carry concealed while on duty. Always w/ 1 in the chamber. So I get a call one night and was asked by the owner, as a personal favor, to close another resturant he owned a few miles away. Told me the closer in the other store (which I have never worked in before) called in sick and he was in a bind, and needed someone to close. I asked my assistant mgr. if she was willing to work some OT and close up "my" store so I could close the other store. She agreed, so I hit the bathroom, to unload, case and lock my Glock (none of my employees knew I carried, and I wanted to keep it that way...its no ones business but my own and the business owner) and I drove off to this other store.

This location had a nightclub across the street, almost within eye shot of the counter. Basically 2 of the 4 walls were glass, so it was easy to see when a customer was walking around the shop. I had a few drunks in throught the night, but nothing out of the ordinary.

It was about 20 minutes until closing time. I saw a lone guy walking towards the entrance. He opens the door, I greet him with a, "Welcome to (resturant name)", and noticed from at least 15+ feet away his eyes...his pupils were the size of dinner plates, no white, just pupil. I felt uneasy straight away and slowly started backing up towards the back of the store. This guy is mumbling/ranting, all I really remember was him saying, "Blood,life,....spills,red..." as he was just walking towards me (there is a large counter in front of us, but he is walking towards the swinging door that would lead him to behind the counter). He said other words as well, but I dont recall what they were...too mumbled. I didnt even have the time/clarity to say anything to him. Too busy feeling the hair on my arms and the back of my neck standing up I guess. As they say, the eyes are the window to the soul, and I didnt like what I saw.

I continued to back up and this guy leaps across the counter. Didnt even go through the unsecured swinging door, but leaped over a 3 or 4 foot tall counter. Hes still about 15 feet away from me when his feet hit the ground, nothing to seperate us now but air. He now has his right hand behind his back, and still mumbling incoherently. I continue to back up and bump into a wall. Not the complete back of the store mind you, but it might have well as been as far as I was concerned. To this day, I still cannot forget those eyes, those pupils. Things are running in slow motion now. Every step he took, every thought in my head...slow motion. I instinctively reach to the small of my back w/ my right hand and remove my firearm. At the time, it seemed painfully slow, my hand not moving at full speed. My left hand seemed to fumble to lift up my untucked shirt. The draw, again, something I will never forget, was smooth, my left hand mirrored my right as I leveled the front sight to center of mass, my finger drawn to the trigger. At this time his right arm has starting to move away from his back and forward towards me, although his hand is still out of my site. I started to depress the trigger somewhat...it was just SO surreal, I cant say for sure. I remember feeling my finger pulling back on that trigger for what seemed like 3 feet!!

The guy freezes....stops moving forward. He looks at me and says, in a completely coherent, clear and logical tone, "Dude...Im just tripping on 'cid." (slang for being high on LSD). He turns around, puts his (now I can see empty) hand on the swinging door and gently pushes it open, and cooly exits the premises. Im still a bit in shock, thinking what almost was, but I walk to the door, lock it up, finish my closing duties (still dont know for sure why, maybe for the routine, the "reality" I was trying to get a grasp on) and got the f out of dodge.

I put in my 2 week notice the next day.

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Above all, I feel I am blessed. By who/what, I cannot say, but I also learned a lesson (maybe the MOST valuable lesson) that night - how would I react to a life/death situation. Machismo aside - I wont lie - I was terrified. But I did what I did out of training instinct and am grateful that I know how I would react to a similar situation.

So, to my point if anyone is still reading, one of the most important aspects of training is, "Can I actually do it?". Really, this is a rhetorical question, but one you MUST be truthful with, if only to yourself. I am not speaking of trained military/law enforcement persons, but your average civilian. Do NOT underestimate this critical (and often neglected) piece of training - can you REALLY shoot a human being.
 
You left out the part where you reloaded and put the gun back on.

Funny how, even when tripping, looking down the barrel of a gun being held by someone ready and willing to use it straightens 'em right out !

Thanks for sharing.
 
I stopped a drunk coming at me with an 8" blade one night.

They didn't remember it the next day, but I'll never forget the look in their eyes when I pulled my BUG. The sight of the gun stopped them in their tracks and I was able to take the knife away without resistance.

Having a gun is only part of the equation. The really important part is the willingness to use it, IMO. It's OK to be scared, I'm scared a lot. It's what you do when you are scared that matters.

Glad you came through this alright.

BikerRN
 
can you REALLY shoot a human being.

I must have asked myself that a 1000 times or more. If my life is on the line, yes. It really is sobering when you sit down and think about it.

I'm glad no one was hurt, good story.
 
Yada, with all BS and bravado aside you need to have made the decision to kill someone before you ever bought or strapped the gun on..... If you didn't you're light years behind. How many of you have even SEEN a dead body before, let alone see one being shot???? I'll bet not many.......
 
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can you REALLY shoot a human being.

:evil:

A little devil's advocate:

You might reconsider the problem thusly: If your life (or loved one's lives) was in iminent mortal danger and you had a gun, could you NOT shoot the BG? If you answer "yes, it is possible that I could not bring myself to fire" (with as much or as little soul searching as is necessary), I would argue that you have something seriously wrong.

As has been mentioned on these forums numerous times, humans and other animals are imbued with a "fight or flight" instinct. Instincts don't require training, practice or pondering before they kick in. You will either fight for yourself (and your family) or (if possible) flee from the danger. Even if you've never thought about it.

Now, in order to be effective in your fight against the BG, training and practice and thoughtfulness is paramount - as demonstrated by the OP. But I will submit that the decision about whether or not to defend one's self does not require much forethought.
 
Truly a scary thought! That guy was only a heart beat from eternity and you were a finger twitch from a killing!

I've thought about this so many times...I think I can shoot. I also think I'll be behind the curve trying to "be sure" its the right thing. Not a very good prospect.

I actually hope I never find out the answer to this question.

Mark
 
ummm, I'm 90% sure I'd do what I was trained to do and shoot center mass without thinking at all. As to the legal issues afterward, that'd be the tricky part.

On a related note, a buddy of mine got in a fight with a crackhead who tried to rob a store he was shopping in. He beat up the crackhead pretty good, smashed the guys head in the floor a couple times, before the crackhead ran. This was after the crackhead broke the leg of the rentacop who tried to detain him. My buddy had been trained in unarmed combat, and pretty much followed muscle memory and such.
 
I have no doubt I will be scared in a self defense situation. I also have no doubt I will do what is necessary without hesitation. In fact, in your scenario, I have no doubt I would not have been backing up. I would not have let it get to the wall. Once the druggy jumped the counter, it would be on like donkey kong.
 
with all BS and bravado aside you need to have made the decision to kill someone before you ever bought or strapped the gun on.

+1
If you do not KNOW the answer to that question then you shouldn't be carrying. The TOUGH part of the equation is can you LIVE with it, and you may not be able to answer that until it happens. Yes I have seen dead bodies and have even made some of them that way. It is not pleasant, fun , or even cool. It is sickening even to someone who has done it before but it is someting that NEEDS to be done. Good luck working this out. BTW Anyone who is not scared is lying or psycotic.
 
As has been mentioned on these forums numerous times, humans and other animals are imbued with a "fight or flight" instinct. Instincts don't require training, practice or pondering before they kick in. You will either fight for yourself (and your family) or (if possible) flee from the danger. Even if you've never thought about it.

This is mentioned anecdotally a lot, but it is actually very very false. What our body does is activate the sympathetic nervous system, which preps our body to either fight, flight, or stand really still and hope no one notices us. What we do with it then boils down to what our subconscious thinks is the best course of action at the moment. Hence, why you hear often the expression "paralyzed with fear." Its just simply the third and often overlooked facet of "fight or flight."

As for strapping on a gun, and being "PREPARED TO KILL!!" - leave the blood-lust at home. You shouldn't be shooting to kill, only to stop. Death of an assailant is a possibility, but it is not the primary desired outcome. The desired outcome is for them to stop whatever they were doing, and get away from you or whomever you are protecting.

In that respect, I would rate the OP's use of a firearm in self-defense as very much a success, as it immediately made his assailant STOP what he was doing and leave the OP alone.
 
None of my employees know that I have my gun on me either. One was nosey enough to ask me what is in my right pocket. I already had an answer, "that's my journal." My CHL instructor said that it's not good for even girlfriends to see my gun. He had a story of an angry girlfriend that accused him of assault with a weapon.

I caught one employee numerously trying to scan my waistline. Inside jobs are half of the robberies/burglaries.

He may have been on LSD, but I think that he was up to no good.
 
...sympathetic nervous system, which preps our body to either fight, flight, or stand really still and hope no one notices us.

In my study of physiology I have never heard of a description of the sympathetic nervous system (SNS) which includes the above. While certain animals have the ability to use camouflage, and that camouflage is initiated by the SNS, there is no evidence of that reaction among humans. The SNS is only half of the "fight or flight" equation: preparation. The SNS prepares the body to be able to undertake the rigors of fighting or fleeing, it does not cause you to do one or the other. Which action you take is still a matter of evaluation (by your subconscious, as you rightfully point out). My argument above is simply that no amount of naval evaluation will change your subconscious' decision. If you are attacked and the only option is to fight, you didn't have to think about it for months prior to be able to come to that conclusion, as is suggested here in other posts. You JUST DO IT (to coin a phrase).
 
I suppose the anonymity of forums makes me more comfortable

Relative anonymity is more like it. People, esp the mods, can basically see who you are. So to anyone feeling cozy, be careful what you post from a legal standpoint. (No offense to the mods, just making a point)
 
As has been mentioned on these forums numerous times, humans and other animals are imbued with a "fight or flight" instinct. Instincts don't require training, practice or pondering before they kick in. You will either fight for yourself (and your family) or (if possible) flee from the danger. Even if you've never thought about it.

This just isn't borne out, for whatever reason. Maybe because we have too much capacity for forebrain thought even in life-or-death situations, or because we have trained ourselves to override our gut feelings. But the bottom line is - yes, you can harness your instinct, but no - in many cases where a normal civilian is assaulted, instinct doesn't come into play at all.
 
when your life is on the line that person in front of you becomes an "object", in my case a life size target.You should not shoot to kill,but you should start with the kneecaps and work your way up.
 
ALWAYS shoot to stop the threat. Intentionally causing pain for the sheer joy of it is sadistic and dishonorable. Not to mention you could wind up in legal hot water. NOT TO MENTION that guns don't just drop people dead. Bullets do odd things and there is a possibility that your fire, even to a vital area, could have no effect. Wouldn't it suck to have wasted your time working on his knees and then wind up slashed to death or whatever because of your brutality and arrogance?

Fear isn't a bad thing. Like anything else it can be blessing and/or a curse.
 
Nicely written recount of a scary incident. I myself, ( no bragging here, just personal feelings) have the ability to only think tactically when in a situation like that, and never have asked myself that question. I have had a few incidents while still living in California where I was confronted by a drunk, or high or otherwise mentally impared citizen, and had to resort to some form of possible self protection. I never had to shoot a citizen. Luck so far I guess!

I also think that not enough stiories like this make it to the gun hating media, because if they do, they never get reported. Can you imagine how much better the preception of guns would be if every report of saving ones life or many lives got reported?
 
You should not shoot to kill,but you should start with the kneecaps and work your way up.

Yeah, not so much

The whole purpose is to stop the threat. period.

Do not try to play Billy the kid and aim for the knees or something like that; fact is when your faced with a situation like the OP was the goal is to stop the treat.
 
so I hit the bathroom, to unload, case and lock my Glock (none of my employees knew I carried, and I wanted to keep it that way...its no ones business but my own and the business owner) and I drove off to this other store.


Why did you unload and case the Glock?

At this time his right arm has starting to move away from his back and forward towards me, although his hand is still out of my site. I started to depress the trigger somewhat...it was just SO surreal, I cant say for sure. I remember feeling my finger pulling back on that trigger for what seemed like 3 feet!!

The guy freezes....stops moving forward. He looks at me and says, in a completely coherent, clear and logical tone, "Dude...Im just tripping on 'cid." (slang for being high on LSD). He turns around, puts his (now I can see empty) hand on the swinging door and gently pushes it open, and cooly exits the premises.

What am I missing? You started pulling the trigger and nothing happened or were pulling the trigger in slow motion and stopped halfway after the guy froze?
 
You shouldn't be shooting to kill, only to stop. Death of an assailant is a possibility, but it is not the primary desired outcome. The desired outcome is for them to stop whatever they were doing, and get away from you or whomever you are protecting.

Hrm. The first sentence sounds disturbingly like "shoot to wound" which I am sure most of you recognize as a naive and unrealistic idea. While you have a point, yes, the primary desired outcome is to force the perp to stop, death ensures that the perp A: will stop attacking you, and B: will never go on to attack or harm anyone else. Personally, I am prepared to defend myself and those around me with a proper use of lethal force, if required. And I see a firearm as the most suitable vehicle for my goal. If you simply want to "stop" the perp, carry a taser, not a gun. When I first recieved firearms instruction at age 6, I was taught never to point the muzzle of the weapon at anything you did not intend to shoot, and if the target was alive, you had better intend upon killing the target. Which, if the situation demands such a response, I am more than ready (and capable) to deliver.
 
When he says 'shoot to stop' he's encompassing situations like the pharmacy worker in Oklahoma.

The first shot 'stopped' the assailant. The assailant was unconscious and on his back. Going back to kill the assailant way well get the pharmacist a second degree murder charge.

If whether your center mass shot shot kills or wounds, the moment the threat stops so should you. Allowances are made for double-tapping or rapidly firing to make sure someone hopped up on PCP has truly given up -- that's making sure the threat is stopped, but one isn't given carte blanche to ensure their target is killed. Once the threat ends, so does your response to the threat. As with the pharmacist, no going back for seconds.

Killing a target stops them, but if the first bullet (or three) ends up with a wounded assailant who isn't reaching for a gun or otherwise presenting a viable threat, you've stopped him and it's time to stop pulling the trigger. If I'm reading -V- right, that's the point he's trying to make, and I (and the laws of most states) agree with him. It's good advice!



Also:

Thank you for sharing your story, Musick. My pawn shop has a very passive approach to crime: give the criminals whatever they want and hope they don't hurt you. It's worked a couple of times when we were robbed, and in at least one of those cases it was obvious we were robbed by former employees who knew the rules. So far nobody's been hurt, but I'm concerned that both our scrap metal company and our armored car company have been hit en route by gun-wielding thugs in the past couple months. In the case of the armored car robbery (they were doing a cash pickup at Walmart at the time) the thieves just opened fire. No demands.

I'm tempted to carry at work, but can't afford to lose my job if caught. You can bet that when I get that 2am alarm company call I roll with at least a pistol on my hip, policy be damned. I'm happy to let a thief take the company's property per their rules, but I'm not willing to put my life into the hands of a jumpy scared kid with a pistol.
 
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