Your agency is switching to a new caliber

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KLR

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Okay folks- your agency is going from 9mm to .40. You are authorized a privately owned weapon in place of the issue gun which you hate. Of the two choices which would you do?

Buy a SigPro DAO in .40 S&W

or

Convert your Sig 229 to DAO and buy a .40 barrel (it has a .357 bbl)


Leaning away from Glock, Beretta, and H&K
 
Okay, even if you DO dislike your issued service weapon, you just KNOW the rest of us are going to be curious and want to know what is ... right? :D Even if it's not on the table as one of your "choices" ... ;)

Do you like the SIG Pro? If so, by all means get one.

The 229, on the other hand, seems to offer more folks a better overall grip, listening to them, anyway.

I dislike having to "convert" weapons which may under close scrutiny by some lawyer in a civil wrongful death case, though ... not unless it's something commonly recommended by SIG, or any other manufacturer, and done by either the factory or a certified SIG L/E armorer. Got one of those on staff at your agency?

It's much less "potentially expensive" to simply buy a new DAO .40 S&W in your favorite model/platform.

My agency is reviewing ... again ... the potential option of allowing our folks to purchase and carry personally owned weapons. When I was younger, that really appealed to me. In later years, however, I'm less concerned about the issued weapon ... and more concerned about the ability to engage in frequent practice & training with whatever it is we're using.

Even if the optional carry of a Personally Owned Weapon becomes authorized, I'll probably remain using one of the 2 service weapons I'm currently issued and carrying ... a 6906 & SW99 .40 S&W ... than buy something else.

I MIGHT ... maybe ... opt to carry a 1911, if we're going to be approving them for general use. That's on the table. I've always appreciated the ergonomics and qualities of the 1911 platform, and I really like the SW1911 I've been using, as well as a couple of the CBQ's I've been using ... although I think the Wilson CQB's are overpriced. Another subject ...

Sure, there are many pistols I LIKE better than others, for both subjective and objective reasons ... but when it comes right down to it, I can manipulate, use & shoot even those weapons I STRONGLY DISLIKE more than well enough to use to satisfy me that I can rely on them for service/defensive purposes. Personally, I won't easily accept not being able to consistently shoot any modern revolver or pistol well enough to be able to depend on it for serious defensive use, and under adverse conditions.

The disappointing "weak point", or lacking, in my abilities in this regard has always been trying to use a P7/M8/M13, however, as I've never quite been able to consistently, without fail, squeeze the grip frame to cock the striker under moderate stress. DA/SA, SA & DAO (in all its latest variations) ... and DA, DAO & even SA revolvers ... seems to be the limit of my personal range of abilities ... :banghead:

I'm curious to see what you eventually decide, because I'm always interested in the reasoning behind people's decisions in matters like these.

Best of luck ...
 
We don't have a final answer yet. It could (very, very likely) end up being the 96D Centurion. Pain in the neck for plainclothes work.

I would have my 229 done by SIGARMS if I decided to go down that route. Might even have them put in the short trigger too.

You are right, given the cost of the new barrel and the DAO/Short trigger, I could have a new SigPro for $200 more.

The SigPro felt a little big in the hand even with the small backstrap, although I haven't had a chance to shoot one yet. I am waiting to see what the contract says. Once word comes out I will try renting a SigPro and decide if I like it. LEO price- two tone, NS, 3 mags: $500.
 
LEO price- two tone, NS, 3 mags: $500.
Man, wish us common folk could get those prices.


Hope your department lets you carry what you want.
 
KBR80- So do I (to both of your statements).

From what I have seen though, there are some really good deals to be found on the SigPro in general. Someone posted about CDNN having them for something in the Mid $400s, but without the NS.

The funny part is the SigPro's price puts it within about $20 of the Glock LEO price.

I currently carry a G-19 which I don't love from an aesthetic/favorite gun standpoint, but do love for the fact that it is a great duty weapon.


Okay- the real issue at work here:
I may be overly cautious, but I have reservations about upgrading to the G-23. Yes, I know the entire world has gone to .40 Glocks (or nearly so). But I prefer something like the SigPro (or to some extent the 229) that was designed from the ground up to be a .40. The history of the G-23 kind of concerns me that it is essentially a G-19 upgraded to .40. I also think the unsupported chamber is more of an issue in a .40 than a 9mm. Logical? Not really. There probably isn't any difference in the relative risk, however, you don't hear a lot about Glock 9mm Kabooms where the .40s seem to have a bigger problem.

Okay- somebody slap me out of my hysteria!!!!!!!!!!!
 
tlhelmer- I actually prefer DAO. I was always a "decent" shot when I went to qualify with the M-9 while on active duty. When I switched to DAO I started shooting perfect scores. I have a serious problem with the "crunch-tick" syndrome. I like a smooth 8lb trigger full-time rather than the 12lb to 4lb transition. It isn't an issue for me.
 
I'm a fan of a consistant trigger pull as well... single action is nice, Kahr's system is nice, full blown DAO is a third choice but still better than DA/SA.

I've owned a SIG Pro and a 229, both in 40. If it were up to me, all things being equal, I'd rather carry the 229 than the Pro. If I were forced to carry a SIG, I'd have no problems with a 229 converted to DAO with a trigger smoothing job (not lightening, just polishing). I also own a G23 that I have complete faith in. I'm not a big fan of the 180 Gr bullets and don't see a pressing need to have the highest velocity possible 155 or 165 gr loads either. A 165 at 1,050 or 1,150 fps is gonna change somebody's day just as effectively as the same bullet at 1200 fps. And I'm starting to have a bias against Federal ammo as well... Founded or not. :p

Is there any talk of what ammo will be issued or approved? Lowest bid or something more consistant?
 
Sometimes these sort of decisions take much longer than we'd like, don't they?

We've been considering adopting new service weapons since 1999, and after having finished a long T&E period with several makes, models & calibers ... now we're told that the office wants to start another T&E session.

Our current weapons were purchased and placed into service back in 89/90, so we're reaching a point where they're starting to "age", and we're seeing some increased smaller parts starting to require replacement. I've got somewhere around 30-35K through one of the older issued weapons, but only approx 7K through a "new" issued SW99 .40 S&W, of which we bought a small quantity for some extended in-service evaluation. We've had excellent service from our TDA weapons, and I wouldn't be surprised if the people that determine such things don't eventually simply "upgrade" to the latest versions.

I'd be surprised if a decision is actually made before I retire in another 2-3 years ... and we're not a "big" agency, either, having only approx 400 armed positions.

Oh well ...

Good luck to you, and don't lose any sleep over it.;)

One of the local agencies just transitioned from their Beretta 92's in 9mm to a .40 S&W model. I've only qualified one of their folks (assigned to one of our special enforcement units) with his new Beretta .40, and all I had time to notice was that it was DA/SA, equipped with a spring-loaded decocking assembly. Nice weapon ... but probably somewhat large for plainclothes work, as you mentioned.

Personally, since I've been training & instructing with issued TDA (DA/SA) weapons since we adopted them to replace our revolvers ... and having fired an embarrassing amount of rounds allocated through our annual ammunition budget :uhoh: ... I've become very comfortable with DA/SA transition, and am comfortable making even long range shots (50, 75 & 100 yards) using the DA or first-shot trigger stroke, although SA is "easier", obviously. ;)

But that doesn't mean our next weapon may not be one of the latest DAO variations. I'm interested to see if we can obtain a T&E model of the latest HK weapon.

Since I'm on the donwhill slide to retirement, and probably won't be carrying whatever's eventually adopted, I really don't care what the rest of the office wants, as long as they provide us with sufficient training & practice time. Also, I hope whatever we adopt is something that can be easily used by the majority of folks in our agency.

Naturally, if we decide to adopt an Approved Personally Owned Weapon policy, there may not be a "rush" to replace our current weapons with new ones, depending on how many folks decide to carry their own weapons.

A question for you, though ...

Does your agency have armorer support for various weapon makes & models? If not, and you're faced with the possibility of "providing" your own armorer-type weapons inspections, maintenance & repair, that could become a bit annoying ... especially if you have to locate another L/E armorer that would be "approved" by your agency to maintain a "service weapon", or you have to have such things done by a factory authorized service technician. It's amazing the variation that's around among different agencies when it comes to such policies ...

Ammunition? That's another issue entirely ... :)

We went from having an issued brand/bullet weight, with an option to use a wide variety of "Approved" factory ammunition for service use, to "Issued Only" service ammunition ... but budget issues don't allow us to provide the same premium service ammunition for personally owned off duty weapons, so we're back to having an "Approved" list of factory ammunition for off duty weapons. :scrutiny:

It's always something, isn't it? :banghead:
 
Those of us that carry POWs are already using our own armorers so it isn't anything new. Of course, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Glock armorer. It may get more difficult doing our annual armorer certification with another gun.
 
Of course, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Glock armorer.
:D :D :D

Yeah, I know what you mean ...

While I'm an armorer for S&W TDA/DAO/Sigma & SW99/P99, Colt AR15/M16/M4 & Remington 870 ... I just learned I'm going to be attending a Glock armorer's course, along with a couple of our other armorers, in a couple of months. We have several folks that carry Glocks off duty, and a few folks that work special units who have received approval to carry POW/Glocks (among a couple other makes), so it makes sense to have some Glock armorers on staff. In the past some of our folks that have experienced broken parts and malfunction issues with their Glocks have had to take them to a couple of other L/E armorers to get them diagnosed and repaired. (A liability issue). Since Glocks aren't as popular in the Bay Area as S&W, Beretta, SIG & HK, that's made it a bit difficult for a couple of folks.

Fortunately, we have another armorer who's also a 1911, SIG and S&W/Colt revolver armorer, so we have many bases covered when it comes to off duty weapons.
 
Well, well, well. Here we are, late November and still no answer on our .40.

I started this thread in April.

Looks like one of the possibilities is the H&K P-2000. If so, the P-2000SK might be an option. Getting it certified annually might be a problem compared to say Glock and Sig. If I can find a friendly gunsmith to do the 13 point checklist while I wait- no problem. If I have to send the gun off for a week and a half (a lot of guys do that now), no thanks. Currently there are so many glock armorers I can usually get my gun checked out in 10 minutes.

Having handled a few more weapons since April I have decided that the SigPro is a little large for plainclothes carry. I love the Sig DAK trigger and H&K LEM triggers. They are both sweet.

The Sig 229 in .40 is a little heavy for my tastes.

The new Beretta PX-4 MAY be a possibility. No one knows (or is talking) as to whether the PX-4 was ready for submission for our trials. That gun is just way to big and heavy. It is dimensionally larger than a Glock 17 and weighs 30 point something ounces. Thanks, but no.

If the agency goes Beretta or Sig, I will probably go Glock 23 (on duty) and 27 (BUG).

If the agency goes P-2000 I will probably carry it (since agency armorers will keep it running) and use my duty weapon fund for something cool.
 
After long consideration, have you considered a SIG 239 in .40 with the SIG DAO substitute trigger?

I'd suggest it for an agency, as the Double column magazine guns can be a handling problem.

Geoff
Who thinks smaller is better, especially for sidearms. :cool:
 
Jeff-

The other wrinkle is the fact that I am on our agency's local tactical team. It would be tough finding a decent tac holster for the 239. I don't know if safariland makes the 6004 (rotating hood tac holster) for it. I do know that (much to my surprise) they make one for the P-2000SK. If I carried the P-2000SK day to day, I would use the 9 round magazine. I would carry full-size P-2000 magazines as reloads. I would also hope that someone would create a grip adapter to fill in the grip when using longer mags.

No such advantage with the P-239. Plus, as much as I love sigs (I own 3) I have never warmed up to the 239.

Yet another consideration:

With LEO prices, you can buy both a Glock 23 and a 27 with night sights for about $100 more than you would spend on a single P-2000SK with night sights. :eek: :scrutiny:

My problem is that I am usually filled with a huge amount of indecision when choosing major purchases such as firearms. I feel badly for my wife having lived through the ugly "Home Defense Long Arm" deliberations. :D

I am in the unenviable position of being on pins and needles about the agency's choice AND suffering from indecision. I have what you might call some contingency plans (see previous post) but those change by the hour.


Sigh! Guess I'll just have to wait.
 
Why has no one mentioned S&W 40xx pistols? I love (and trust) my DAO smith. They make a variety, so you can choose the weight and thickness you want. And, they are metal still.

Just fired a 229, and rather liked it. I assume their DAO trigger is acceptable. I do not fire Glocks, even with light disconnectors, as well as even my DAO smith. Borrow or rent and spend a day shooting when it comes to making the purchase.
 
Try a Mauser M2 in 40 S&W. It's a consistent pull DAO (hammerless, using a semi-cocked striker system that is pulled to full cock by the trigger).

Only one manual safety, but a lot of "lawyer safety" systems built-in.

I'm very, very happy with mine in 45 ACP. :)
 
Don't feel bad. It looks like my agency is going FROM the .40 TO the 9mm. :what: At least that's the educated rumour. For sure we're getting new weapons. Either the SIG 226 or the H&K. By the way, we've had the Beretta 96D for years and most of us don't like it. DAO trigger is llooooonnngg. I prefer my H&KUSPcLEM. Lately there have been more reliability issues also. There have always been spring problems, but lately there have been other issues.
 
ObiWan...

prefer my H&KUSPcLEM. Lately there have been more reliability issues also. There have always been spring problems, but lately there have been other issues.

May I ask what other issues have arisen, and if you know, what were the causes (just so I can look out for mine)?
 
Sorry it took me so long to get back. I was writing this response when the websight died. I couldn't get back to the computer until now.

Besides springs, I have heard of, but not seen, slide cracks. The cause is prob ammo related as we shoot a 155gr JHP at 1200fps. It's pretty hot. Mostly though it's springs - trigger return springs and firing pin safety springs. We've found that if you keep them lubed, they don't break nearly as often. Be that as it may, they've still change all of my springs twice in 5000 rounds fired.
Operationally it's not a bad gun although most of don't really like it. The DAO trigger is very llloooooonnnngggg. Not really heavy or rough, just long. You have to get used to stroking the trigger in one continuous movement. The grip is large for small/medium hands. Keep the slide rails lubed. I like a CLP that used to be called "Gun Guard". It dries to a dry lube and stays put. It can be shot reasonably well. I averaged 99% on our excellent old qual course and have been shooting 100% on the new dumbed down course. It can be shot well, but it takes a bit more work than with other makes. When I first shot my off duty H&K on the old course, I shot my top score ever on that course. (I dropped ONE point by less than .25") Unfortunately they're recinding our authorization to carry the H&KUSPcLEM .40 off duty if it's not the issue weapon. Bottom line on the Beretta - you need to get used to it and keep it lubed. Practice and you'll do OK. Most of us that have shot the H&K prefer it. We're looking forward to getting our (probable) Sigs, especially with the new DAO system. Hopefully in .40. ;)
 
Without getting too specific, I know that one of the military services has had serious M9 slide crack problems and locking block cracks with NATO ball. I know of a federal agency whose Berettas have had trigger return spring problems.
 
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