You're on Your Own

fastbolt said:
I still frequently have questions posed to me (as well as to another retired cop there) by regular guys and gals of the "What if?" variety, which clearly reveals that the average person has little understanding of the role, responsibilities and capabilities of LE in our society.
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Until, as I noted, they actually have need of a cop onsite. I actually had a woman ask me why we didn't show up to the scene of a shooting before it happened, as "There's always people getting shot around here, y'all should know better!" I asked her what she was doing in the area then, and she told me it's because this was her favorite nightclub. Even more priceless comments ensue when people find out that police are not going to respond to your household burglary that happened while you were out and the bad people have long since departed the scene. "You mean no one is going to come out to dust my entire house for fingerprints?"
 
Kleanbore said:
I sent the following to a limited group of friends today.

I hate to put it quite this way, but people who may think that calling 911 will solve their problems if someone is trying to breech their car door, their back door, or the door from their garage to their living quarters are terribly naive. The call will take far too long even if you are not in St. Louis where you will likely be put on hold, and the response time will be far too long to protect you even in the best-policed communities. You are on your own.

Haven't put much thought into it? Get out a stop watch and do the math. Have some friends help in role-playing. If you do not conclude that in the event of a mugging, car-jacking, robbery, or a violent unlawful invasion of your domicile you are on your own, keep working on it.

Attorney Colion Noir (Collins Iyare Idehen Jr) explains if all extremely well in the attached video. Take the time to watch it. Reflect on it. Then do your own risk analysis, realizing that even if you think the odds that you will need to protect yourself are very remote, the severity of the potential consequences is extremely high.

And read and heed this: the presence of a weapon cannot stop incoming fire; using deadly force to protect property is unlawful everywhere in this country except in Texas; if the threat is over, so is your justification to use force; your objective is to protect self and family, not to kill, though the attacker may perish in or after the event; yours is not to punish, but to protect; you have no business trying to detain anyone; your gun will not protect you unless you can access it immediately.

BTW, robbery is not theft; it is a crime against persons.

I have two rules: (1) I will do everything I can to avoid having to shoot at anyone; and (2) if there is some place where I would not feel safe without a gun, I will not go there. There are such places. But my end-game objective is always to avoid serious injury or death.

Let's be careful out there!

Watch the video.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzHTrG3EYhM
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Retired cop here ,26 years as an LEO

I will swear on a stack of bibles that we ALWAYS GOT THERE = just in time to take the report.

Once in a great while,I got lucky and actually got the turd in committing the crime.

But if your not mentally AND physically prepared to be your own first responder ------------ I strongly suggest that be your goal for the new year.

NO,you do not need to be Jerry Miculik,just know the law WELL !.

And train as if your life depended on it.

Your not shooting "targets" ------------ your shooting a THREAT !.

You cannot afford to shoot an innocent.
 
Kleanbore said:
Not so fast. That concept comes as a surprise to many. And it is counter to what some people seem to live by here--"if I'm just going to get milk....but if..."
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That whole mindset is complety beyond my understanding.

I mean, we literally intentionally arrange our life so there is no running to Walmart in the middle of the night because we ran out of Fill-In-The-Blank.

I try to live like a Russian

 
Old Dog said:
Even more priceless comments ensue when people find out that police are not going to respond to your household burglary that happened while you were out and the bad people have long since departed the scene. "You mean no one is going to come out to dust my entire house for fingerprints?"
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Yep--neighbors couldn't belive it.
 
Night Rider said:
That whole mindset is complety beyond my understanding.

I mean, we literally intentionally arrange our life so there is no running to Walmart in the middle of the night because we ran out of Fill-In-The-Blank.
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Different thing. I was speaking about the oft-expressed idea of carrying a gun when going somewhere thought dangerous. You are speaking about the better idea.
 
Hmmm. Interesting responses thus far. Where I live in coastal Alabama ask any of our local 911 center employees and they will tell you that 97% of the calls are medically related. The other 3% are a mix of little old ladies with their cat in a tree, or a suspected gas leak, or a house fire. Must be different where y’all live. No one where I live even thinks about the police and 911 in the same train of thought.

Cops only show after the fact. And in my 20 years of practicing criminal and civil trial work the first responders are always medical professionals, not law enforcement. Just my experiences.
 
Old Dog said:
You mean no one is going to come out to dust my entire house for fingerprints?"
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Did mine. Well not the whole house, but the point of entry. Got a nice set too. I don't think they took blood samples off the broken glass, though.

At The Incident, I think fire was first, then police, then ambulance, then more police.
Neighbor lady was proud of calling 911 so promptly, but it was already after the first response to a call from across the street.
 
Jim Watson said:
Did mine. Well not the whole house, but the point of entry. Got a nice set too. I don't think they took blood samples off the broken glass, though.

At The Incident, I think fire was first, then police, then ambulance, then more police.
Neighbor lady was proud of calling 911 so promptly, but it was already after the first response to a call from across the street.
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Yeah, there's a few pockets of America left where property crimes actually get a police response. Not up here, though.

Many agencies up here now task citizens with filling out a report on line -- they don't even have someone available talk to you on the phone if there was no violence, assault, death, rape or weapons. And in this state, the prosecutor's office has to file charges and often don't even read the officers' reports for weeks. So criminals often get booked into the misdemeanant jail (a regional privatized entity or one of the few city jails) unless it's a higher-level felony offense, either way, the criminals are typically booked and back on the streets same day.

Only time I've ever been to a Wal-Mart in the middle of the night was one time when the kid was really sick, needed medication, and there was literally no other place open. Never again. (Although I did recognize so many of our local tweakers, I gained a new appreciation for anyone brave enough to work at one of these places at night. And was glad I was carrying two spare mags.)
 
CDW4ME said:
You literally are on your own. These times are relatively quick compared to when I lived in the country it could have been 20-30 min.
View attachment 1124063

Even at 6 minutes, the incident is likely already over, one successfully defended themself, or not; the police arrive afterward and make a report.
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Interesting thread. I agree you are on your own. I noticed that nobody has mentioned the time that the "attack" began and the time the call was made. Makes me think of the training I had while on active duty about recognizing the difference of some knucklehead just showing off and when we might be under a legitimate, coordinated attack.

By the time you call for help, help coordinates and mobilizes, then arrives on the scene, the event is history.
 
Kleanbore said:
And read and heed this: using deadly force to protect property is unlawful everywhere in this country except in Texas
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Are you a lawyer?

8 states permit the use of deadly force and 23 provide civil immunity in self-defense situations.

This is likely to change as the year progresses. However, a simple web search renders your assertions moot.
 
Kleanbore said:
And read and heed this: the presence of a weapon cannot stop incoming fire;
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Kleanbore said:
That does not stop me from refueling the car. The risk varies widely according to location and time of day.
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Kleanbore made these two separate statements that tie together quite well to illustrate a point: Being armed does not make one indestructible.

"I am armed, so I am going to do something stupid. Like stop at a dark gas station in drug town at 2AM knowing I have enough gas to make it to a super well lit gas station on the other side of town where it is much safer and there are usually cops stopping for the restroom or coffee." In my 20's I would have done that. I was off duty but I had a badge and a gun, right? Well, neither of those items stops incoming fire. And there was a big difference between putting my life on the line in the discharge of my duties vs. taking an unnecessary risk because a Dr. Pepper and a pack of Fruit Stripes sounded good.

Discretion is the better part of valor. This does not mean run from danger like a coward. It just means don't go looking for it (unless you are getting paid to do so). I did not really get that until I hit my 30's.
 
One of the many of advantages to living in a fairly rural area is you know the police are generally 45 minutes to an hour and a half away. There is no illusion of them being anything other than a clean up crew. You learn young that you have to take care of yourself, in more ways than one… Ambulances, while generally quicker than LEO, are still a 1/2hr away. My grandfather called the fire department once because his neighbors house was on fire, 13 hours later they came to get a report.

Avoidance is always the best route. Frankly, imo, one of the most important parts of self defense is also one of the least talked about…. deescalation.
 
Simple Shooter said:
Discretion is the better part of valor. This does not mean run from danger like a coward. It just means don't go looking for it (unless you are getting paid to do so). I did not really get that until I hit my 30's.
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I like this. I mean, this is IT. Absolutely spot on.

I read many of the posts on THR and I sometimes think to myself, man, some of these guys are nuts! The training, the threads, the polls, the “scenarios,” and on and on and on, ad nauseam.

One can live a safe and satisfying and fulfilled life by heeding this wisdom. And I mean this is wisdom.
 
The worst situation is when one lives in a city or state that is in a free-fall, civilization-wise. In such environs, police response times are way too late, such that all the police can do is write a report and get you to a hospital if you are injured or shot. And wherein, should you defend yourself with your firearm, you are virtually certain to get sued or even arrested. Many urban sprawls now produce juries who first side with the rights of the felons.

Three decades ago, I lost a gunsmith because he was sued for having repaired a firearm that was subsequently used in a homicide. He won the lawsuit, but he was down $10K in legal fees. This is an example of why gun-owners should look into insurance to cover their legal fees should they be sued over a righteous self-defense shooting. Without such, you're on your own.

Here is just one company (I found this via the NRA website), other insurance companies provide personal protection packages:
https://locktonaffinityoutdoor.com/personal-firearm-liability/

I totally understand why police officers, citizens, and businesses are abandoning the cities. I live down South in a tiny town. Was at a local pharmacy and two of us gray-haired fellows were talking. He was a retired Chicago police officer. He couldn't take it anymore = retire now. I would put his age at 55 to 60 years. I've looked up the statistics and police forces are struggling to have a sufficient number of officers. It isn't just civilians, law enforcement officers have been abandoned by municipalities and the courts. We must understand that they too are on their own. (Why arrest someone when they will be back on the streets before you can complete your paperwork?!)
.
 
Let’s stay focused on the things you can do to mitigate risk because you’re on your own. By they way, you have always been on your own. I worked in a town of about 7000 for several years and response times in town were about 2 1/2 minutes……provided that there was an officer free. They were rare but there were nights that we had 4 or 5 pending calls while the two officers on duty were both handling calls. Then again there were nights when both officers responded to a barking dog call because it was the only one all shift.

2 1/2 minutes sounds pretty fast when you’re sitting behind your monitor but 2 1/2 minutes is an eternity in a fight. A lot can and does happen in 2 1/2 minutes.

We aren’t going down the political rabbit hole in this thread. This isn’t the place for that discussion.
 
Jeff White said:
2 1/2 minutes sounds pretty fast when you’re sitting behind your monitor but 2 1/2 minutes is an eternity in a fight. A lot can and does happen in 2 1/2 minutes.
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Quoted for truth.

If you've never, ever, been in an actual physical fight, you just don't know. If you get winded shoveling snow on your driveway for two straight minutes, or start huffing and puffing when you bend over to tie your boots, try some all-out exertion while fighting for your life.

If you live in a rural area, or in city environs such as Seattle or Portland, you're looking, realistically, at about a twenty-minute response time from your initial 911 call.
 
As to response times when a criminal is knocking at the door…

My experience: I was on the phone (in my kitchen) with 911 when the criminal entered the kitchen through a patio door. As it turns out, the police were already looking for the guy as he had earlier been reported in the neighborhood, but it still took them about eight to ten minutes to arrive, during which time he did not respond to verbal deterrence (I told him I was on the phone with 911 and that police were on the way and that he should leave before they arrived); rather than leaving, he initiated a violent attack.

So, yes, Colion Noir is correct. You are your own first responder, and that warrants preparation.
 
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