New respect for 5.56

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Slinky556

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So I'm new here, hi everyone. I joined a short while ago, month or so, but this is my first post. Well today I first hand developed a whole new respect for the 5.56 cartridge. I'm an huge deer hunter here in North Alabama and over the years introduced the tradition to many of my friends. Unfortunately, out of all my friends, I'm the poor one. I wasn't born into a 7 figure funding so I'm just Mr. Blue Collar and miss out on all their North and North-West hunting trips. Over the years I've been asked at least half a dozen times, "What's the best caliber for bear defense on my Alaskan hunt?". I've replied many times "the largest caliber you can fire effectively and repeatedly, but you cant go wrong with a 12ga packed with slugs". Talks never went any further beyond that. Well today, I nailed an 8 point with my bow but he took off and I lost the blood trail. Decided to head in a stop pressuring him, let him lay down and bleed and I'd find him after breakfast. Since it was a nice day, I figured I'd bring my dog Squash with me for some fresh air and exercise while we looked for my deer. We have a couple of coyote packs that roam all throughout the area, seen as many as 9 together on the trail cam by my feeder, so I always carry my AR with me when I'm scouting or setting up stands and such in the early season. Well on our walk Squash starts going berserk. He's having a total fit and sounds raging mad. I catch up to where he's freaking out and there he is, one of our neighbors bulls has gotten through the fence and is in our woods. I don't know bovine species but I know exactly what this bull was... big, black, and filled with 10 gallons of hate and anger all packaged under what seemed to be 12 foot long horns. As I started to back away and tried to call Squash the bull shifted his attention from my half lab half pitbull mix to me and got even angrier. At the moment he started his full charge I lifted my rifle, found my target through my EOtech and let my Geissele trigger work. The huge bull went to the ground and kicked for a few moments before exhaling deeply and died. After the fact, and later counting the remaining 24 rounds in my mag, I realized I had brought that big bull down with 6 62gr M855's. Of course me and my brother visited our neighbor and explained what happened which he understood and even apologized for (sort of), but today I developed a completely new respect for 5.56 and it's abilities. We looked him over as our neighbor was on his way with his tractor to get it and counted 5 holes. Two in his chest, two in roughly his windpipe area and one in the joint of his right front shoulder. While I would never advocate (thesaurus help please) travelling into the bush under gunned, I can say that with my comfort level and efficiency with my AR I probably wouldn't carry anything else anywhere with me after this experience.

M&P 15 (not a sport)
EOtech 512
Geissele SSA-E trigger
VLTOR AEBK5 stock and buffer kit (what recoil)
BCM 13" KMR
Magpul grip and fore grip
 
There were probably way more then one PO'd water buffalo killed in Vietnam by GI's with M-16's and 55 grain FMJ.

And they would make your neighbors bull look like Bambi!!

BTW: Welcome to THR!!

rc
 
Well this was my first time in a truly defensive situation with my rifle and I can say that I am very pleased with the results and truly impressed that the caliber and myself both performed
 
ive recently switched to 5.56 as well after discovering the wound channels delivered my 7.62x39 ammo were really not all that impressive, if 7.62x39 makes a good hunting round, then 5.56 makes a great one

check out 77 grain tipped matchkings if you want a really nasty self defense rounds.. they tend to explode inside whatever you hit with them
 
justin22885 said:
ive recently switched to 5.56 as well after discovering the wound channels delivered my 7.62x39 ammo were really not all that impressive
Click to expand...

Check your ammo. It's a ballistic equivalent of .30-30 and terminal performance is dependent on bullet choice as well as impact velocity. As far as OP's surprise of how well .225/5.56 works is concerned, yes, hydrodynamic shock is definitely there due to sheer velocity, penetration suffices for reaching the vitals of most animals this side of pachyderms and well placed shots will bring down most anything you might encounter. It reminds me of when Israeli Mossad dropped the "non-lethal" rating of .22 rimfire once they realized what its real-life riot control effects were.
 
hq said:
Check your ammo. It's a ballistic equivalent of .30-30 and terminal performance is dependent on bullet choice as well as impact velocity. As far as OP's surprise of how well .225/5.56 works is concerned, yes, hydrodynamic shock is definitely there due to sheer velocity, penetration suffices for reaching the vitals of most animals this side of pachyderms and well placed shots will bring down most anything you might encounter. It reminds me of when Israeli Mossad dropped the "non-lethal" rating of .22 rimfire once they realized what its real-life riot control effects were.
Click to expand...
The hottest loads I've found for my CZ 527 (doubletap tsx) are under 1600 ft-lbs. Hornady Leverevolution for the 30-30 is about 500 ft-lbs more than that. It'll hold 1000 ft-lbs past 300 yards whereas my CZ 527 drops below that threshold around 175 yards. The 7.62x39 is fine for deer within its range, but it's no 30-30 IMO.

To the OP, great job remaining calm in that situation. I've always thought that the amount of lead put downrange on target matters more than bullet energy or any other factor. I think about it this way, I could probably fire ten rounds of 5.56 from an AR in the time it would take me to fire two rounds of 375 Ruger from a bolt action. Would the 375 Ruger be a better choice if you were hunting bulls, sure, but in a purely defensive situation the low recoil semi-auto that puts a lot of lead on target is hard to beat. Sometimes reading online forums you do get the impression that 5.56 will bounce off of animals, but it really is quite deadly on animals small and large.
 
Having killed multiple deer with it, I wouldn't begin to believe that a 5.56 bullet would "bounce off" any animal. That said, it certainly wouldn't be my choice of defensive firearm where large agressive animals are the rule. I'd rather carry something that stands a good chance of a SINGLE round stopping the confrontation, rather than assuming I'd have time to fire multiple rounds of any caliber.
 
All I can figure is the steel penetrator cap of the 855 round is what got it where it needed to be. Any significant damage it did was probably from tumble. I agree with previous post, I would rather be able to put multiple rounds down range on target fast and efficiently. I'll take 5 out of 6 well placed shots from 855 5.56 over one miss and a marginal hit from something bigger like a 454 casull or 460xvr. Still, there's no replacement for displacement and that being said if I ever get opportunity to make my way out west it'll be with my 308 AR. With 178gr SMK's I can operate it just as quickly as my 5.56 rifle. I have the same VLTOR stock/buffer, EO 512 and a Geiselle SD3G trigger in it. I would think 4 or 5 well placed 308's would definitely stop or turn anything around but that's just armchair outdoors for now. My 5.56 experience was probably the wildest experience of my life next to skydiving
 
I have heard stories from a Vietnam Vet about them killing elephants with their M-16s. Probably not a pretty sight but it worked.
 
Cattle will drop from one .22LR, but you have to be able to put it in a very precise spot on the skull. I was totally against using .223 for deer until last year, when my son's 10 deer with his .223 Axis changed my mind. I hunted with a .223 Axis myself this year, he switched to a DPMS AR. He got 4 this year. (All i got was a darn coyote! Hey, that'd make a great T-shirt, "I went hunting with my son, and all I got was this darn coyote!")

The round you used definitely made the difference, I don't think I'd have wanted to shoot that bull with my deer round: 55 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmint @ 3100 fps. :eek:
 
.

Holy Wall of Text! Batman... Welcome to The High Road, Slinky.

I've not hunted w/ 5.56, but I never thought much of it until discharging a few rounds through my son's CZ 527 in .223 [CZ America gives it's blessing on the use of 5.56 in this sweet little carbine]. There is some horsepower there.

I'll be "that guy" and suggest you break up your posts so we can breathe. :D

Again, Welcome!

:)
 
Breathing is over rated lol, there'll be time for that after deer season has ended hahaha. Guess I introduced myself anyways, hi guys.

Oh and I did find my deer, actually on our neighbors property too. Ironic maybe?
 
Just bear in mind that the Army Wound Ballistics Lab determined the 55 and 62 grain bullets they now load are most effective less than 95 yards. After that things get questionable.
 
Corn-Picker said:
The hottest loads I've found for my CZ 527 (doubletap tsx) are under 1600 ft-lbs. Hornady Leverevolution for the 30-30 is about 500 ft-lbs more than that. It'll hold 1000 ft-lbs past 300 yards whereas my CZ 527 drops below that threshold around 175 yards. The 7.62x39 is fine for deer within its range, but it's no 30-30 IMO.
Click to expand...

As far as factory loads are concerned, you're right about that. Factory ammo selection is very limited. You'll need something to the tune of 24-ish gr of IMR4198 behind a 150gr bullet to reach that so rolling your own is a must for the upper end of E0. No tube mags, though, so high bc spitzers are a good way to turn the tables at E100-E200 where the actual impact takes place.
 
After my saying something about it earlier, does anyone have any experience with a 308AR in a predator defense situation? I obviously know 5.56 works on a bull but would prefer 308 for obvious reasons. I love my 454 Ruger Alaskan but I can probably run a dozen rounds effectively though my M&P10 per 2 or 3 through my Alaskan. I guess I could search but I already have this thread rolling. Just really want to make a trip North West on a hunt soon, next year or two. Please don't say shotgun lol, I don't need any more temptation to drop on a KSG12 hahaha. I only have an old Mossberg 410 pump that was my great granddads
 
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Slinky, I enjoyed reading your post. You have a way with words.

About 308 in a self loader, that has been my choice now for a few years after careful consideration of the options available to me. I reckon I can get off 3 well aimed 308 shots in the time I can get off 5 well aimed shots with a 223. When I did the math, it made sense to me.

Glad you didn't get stomped, gored, or otherwise hurt.
 
Thank you and so am I. I'm saving for an hunt out North West and the more I think about it I may just put together an SBR upper in 458 socom to carry slung while my Matthews is in hand
 
rcmodel said:
There were probably way more then one PO'd water buffalo killed in Vietnam by GI's with M-16's and 55 grain FMJ.

And they would make your neighbors bull look like Bambi!!

BTW: Welcome to THR!!

rc
Click to expand...
:scrutiny:

Well, I do recall one story of a couple of U.S. soldiers on leave circa WW2 in the Indonesian area (fighting the Japanese) who decided to go hunt water buffalo. For reasons unknown they chose to draw M-1 Carbines from the armory.
Sure enough, they happened upon a nice big water buff, huge spreading horns, magnificent beast, and one of the two raised his carbine -- mind you, loaded with a round twice as heavy as the 55 grain M16 round -- and popped off at the huge critter.
Unfortunatly the buff discovered that it had been shot, got angry, and chased down the offender.
The other made best time back to camp, where he informed his buddies what had happened. They formed a crowd to go off and either rescue the shooter or bring back the body.
They drew M-1 Garands when they left.;)

Oh, they found the water buffalo all right. The thing was easy to identify.
The corpse of the dead soldiers was splayed across the thing's horns, still.
In killing it, all the men emptied their Garands.
A lucky shot with a 5.56MM. might kill a buffalo whereas an unlucky shot with a .30 carbine round might not. Still .....
USE ENOUGH GUN! ​
 
Well comparing 30 carb to 5.56 is a little unfair since 30 carb is just a long 9mm. 1900fps with 900ft lbs is awfully anemic. 3000fps with 1200ft lbs is a significant difference. Roughly 35% more velocity with 25% more energy is a huge difference. M1 Garand, 30-06... now thats a rifle. By the way, I'm not advocating 5.56 for large animal defense. It just happened to work last weekend in a bad situation and I'm grateful for it
 
I never shot an elephant with an AR but I thought about it. I was resting along a road and watching traffic. I suddenly sensed something behind me and spun around. Here I was, face to trunk with an elephant. His owner and family were doing their best not to laugh. I had no idea that an elephant can move silently. Especially in the jungle. A nearby gunner was grinning like a monkey that had just passed gas. Water Buffalo were used for target practice but the Army would take the cost to the farmer out of your pay if they caught you.
 
ive recently switched to 5.56 as well after discovering the wound channels delivered my 7.62x39 ammo were really not all that impressive, if 7.62x39 makes a good hunting round, then 5.56 makes a great one
Click to expand...

I've had exactly the opposite experience, and I refuse to use 5.56 for feral pigs any longer, going instead to the 7.62x39. The performance of my Savage scout in 7.62x39 on pigs effectively duplicates what I saw for years with my Win 30-30, dropping them in their tracks, or producing quick, clean kills.

After shooting dozens of feral pigs with the .223, I am convinced it simply is not enough gun for the job. Too often I've had to shoot a pig multiple times before I could even tell it was hit, wasting valuable time and ammo that should have been directed toward other pigs. In other words, that round was not up to the task.

IMO, the 7.62x39 with Hornady SST ammo is an ideal feral pig round.

I know I'll get flamed for saying this (and that's fine) but I think the .223 should be removed from the list of calibers that people are allowed to hunt deer with.
 
Just curious, what bullets were you using on pigs? I went on a hunt in Arkansas one time and dropped 4 that weekend with Winchester 64gr power points
 
It seems to me if you have to shoot an animal multiple times, you are not being humane in killing it and any round that requires multiple hits is only marginally effective at best. Yeah, I know that any round can, with bad marksmanship, require multiple shots. And I know that .223 is more powerful than handgun hunting rounds, but if it cannot humanely kill on a regular basis with a single shot, it isn't appropriate for the job.
 
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