New respect for 5.56

[d2wing]

I was raised on a dairy farm. We had mostly Holsteins, they are big but normally docile. But not always cows can get ornery kick you, butt you or swing their horns at you, or run you over. I ended up in the hospital a couple times and had a few stitches. That wasn't so much. But once our neighbors huge bull smelled blood or something and went wild. He smashed through a corral like matchsticks and went after everything and everybody. Our neighbor was hurt but got indoors. My dad went after him on a tractor but finally had to shoot him.
We had one go wild too. Scared the crap out of me. After that we went artificle insemination. I will never forget seeing that bull romp around like a rodeo bull knocking over anything in his path. He got shot too. Good eating.
Back in those days once in awhile you would hear of a farmer getting killed by livestock. I was chased by a bull moose once but he didn't scare me as bad as that bull. Wild animals are easier to scare off.

 

[Slinky556]

If I ever find myself around cattle again I can promise my 308 ar will be slung in condition one with my 454 Alaskan on my leg. I'm not afraid of cattle but I've always respected then, even more so now. Should my luck ever fade I'd like to have caliber on my side

 

[straightShot]

The .30 Carbine was a good round for close-in fighting and the light carbine found enthusiasts in the Pacific theater in jungle warfare, whereas in europe, where longer range shooting was often the norm, soldiers often found it wanting in power at great distance, yet its sight was regulated to 300 yards, which I daresay was optimistic.
Still, the relatively weak round had unusual penetration power.
The Japanese officers often wore crude metal plate body armor. The .45ACP from the 1911 or the Thompson, or grease-gun,, would not penetrate the armor.
.30-'06 from the Garand would.
And, so would the reputative "anemic" .30 carbine.
I somehow doubt that 9mm. would have penetrated, especially the 9mm. of the WW2 era .... but I don't know if that was ever tested.

My pa's experience was just the opposite. He got rid of his carbine in favor of a Thompson because of how well it performed for him in the jungles of New Guinea and elsewhere.

 

[Tommygunn]

My pa's experience was just the opposite. He got rid of his carbine in favor of a Thompson because of how well it performed for him in the jungles of New Guinea and elsewhere.

I never intended to suggest the Thompson was a poor performer. IMHO they are heavy and somewhat "clunky," and the rear sight gets stuffed in the eyeball. The stock could have been more ergonomically designed.
If you watch a lot of WW2 footage you see Thompson - armed soldiers holding the weapon waist high and level; there's a reason; it works quite well that way.

I don't wish to appear to be disdaining your pa's experience; it's simply a fact that the .30 carbine is a more powerful cartridge than the .45ACP. Now when you have a LOT of those .45ACP bullets zipping at you at 800 rounds per second, yeah....THAT IS GONNA LEAVE A MARK!
I have heard stories of WW2 soldiers trading their M-1 Garands for carbines as they had too much trouble with the Garand .... yet if I'd served in WW2 and wanted a gun with a powerful cartridge I'd grab the M-1 Garand first.
Soldiers often had their own reasons for liking and disliking a particular gun; they can be as fickle as a civilian.
It's interesting to note that a select-fire version of the carbine was fielded in the last days of WW2, so that would pump out ....800-1000(?) rounds per minute of .30 carbine....that, to would have left a mark.
Also, had the war lasted longer, a newer version of the Thompson, probably an M2A1 version, would have been introduced, made in stainless steel, a cocking knob on both sides of the receiver rather than just the right side (as the M1 and M1A1 versions had) and chambered in .... wait for it .... wait for it.... .30 Carbine. BUT, that never happened; the M2 carbine eliminated the reason for it, and the Army was perfectly happy with the Greasegun replacing the Tommygun, save it never really totally replace it.

Give your father my thanks for his WW2 service!

 

[zorro45]

Bull

Slinky, Glad both you and your pup are OK.

So, how much did that bull dress out at???

 

[Slinky556]

I have no clue, our neighbor came and got him and thats been the last of it. I don't know if no news is good news or what. My dad said talked to him a few days ago at the corner store and said he was a real A-hole. My dad's always had this issue with swinging first and saying hello later (even at 62) so it could be instigated or not. He used some choice words to describe their discussion, whatever it was

 

[AnselHazen]

Slink, thousands of dollars in lost poultry until I went and got an AR. I can tell you without a doubt SS109 penetrator will put a real hurt on poultry predators.

A big part of the package I feel was putting a trijicon rx06 on my rifle. I can drop them on the run. I walk my dog at night with it, knowing there is a bear within 5 miles of the house.

I am so comfortable with this package I took it deer hunting this year after reading this article. It's actually reprinted in the One Caliber One Book for .223

http://sportingdealnews.com/the-223-remington/

I have two boxes of Nosler 60 gr on the reloading bench.

 

[Slinky556]

Awesome, glad I could be of help. Any time I've hunted with mine I used winchester 64gr soft points but 95% of the time I prefer my bow. Did you have any luck with your AR? I'm using an EO 512 on mine, few other goodies in it as well haha

 

[joustin]

Well after my bovine encounter I've pretty much made up my mine that if and when I get out on north western hunt I'll have an AR at hand, just not in 5.56mm. I'm more and more leaning towards a 458 socom upper every day. And of course, the icing on that cake will be an EOtech

The Eotech s nice but they don't hold zero in lower temps. They have a recall on almost every unit because of this.

 

[Slinky556]

I havent had an issue with mine but I'll call them today and see if the recall applies to mine. Thanks for the heads up

 

[meanmrmustard]

I've had exactly the opposite experience, and I refuse to use 5.56 for feral pigs any longer, going instead to the 7.62x39. The performance of my Savage scout in 7.62x39 on pigs effectively duplicates what I saw for years with my Win 30-30, dropping them in their tracks, or producing quick, clean kills.

After shooting dozens of feral pigs with the .223, I am convinced it simply is not enough gun for the job. Too often I've had to shoot a pig multiple times before I could even tell it was hit, wasting valuable time and ammo that should have been directed toward other pigs. In other words, that round was not up to the task.

IMO, the 7.62x39 with Hornady SST ammo is an ideal feral pig round.

I know I'll get flamed for saying this (and that's fine) but I think the .223 should be removed from the list of calibers that people are allowed to hunt deer with.

Yes, you will and should get flamed.

After having cleanly and ethically killing deer with 223 long before it was "cool" to do it with an AR-15, instead, using a Zastava Mini Mauser with a slow twist rate and 55 gr Rem soft points and/or Vortex 55 gr copper solids, I am a firm believer and staunch advocate in the use of 223 for deer. It is, to date, one of only two cartridge I've not had to shoot twice at a deer with, the second being 762x54r, and will remain a favorite to me.

I hunt Midwest deer, sir. Not Floridian babies, south Texas midget deer, Missourian cornfed bruisers. MO DOC will not be pulling it anytime soon.

 

[Slinky556]

Nobody accuses a bow of not being enough haha

 

[Driftertank]

Every time a discussion of the lethality of different calibers comes up, i feel compelled to remind people that every game animal on the North American continent has been taken, at one time or another, with a .22LR. I usually follow that with a musing that it'd be interesting to meet the fellow with the big brassy ones it would require to set out after Alaskan Kodiak with a .22.....

Apart from that, I'll add that my preferred defensive load for AR in 5.56 is a hot-loaded Hornady 75 BTHP. 77 SMKs would equally suffice. Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that typical terminal performance of such rounds tends to include yaw, fragmentation, and deep core penetration.

 

[Slinky556]

Tumble and yaw seem to be a more devastating effect (ballistic gel) than expansion of a bullet though I have no evidence to back that up. Just what I've seen on youtube.

 

[JackSprat]

I've never considered it primarily as a deer rifle,but I have killed a few with my old 222,and never had to shoot one twice,but I always shot them in the high neck.I have had them take a little while to quit moving,but never had any chance of getting on their feet.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Nobody accuses a bow of not being enough haha

Apple and orange comparison.

 

[Slinky556]

It was a joke, I'm a gun nut that prefers to bow hunt. I was just being a smarta**

 

[meanmrmustard]

It was a joke, I'm a gun nut that prefers to bow hunt. I was just being a smarta**

As am I. Well, I dont prefer stick and string inasmuch as I use the opportunity to add time to the deer season.

 

[Slinky556]

Thats what first got me into archery. Then after I made a shot one early morning and buried my arrow deep into a beautiful 8 point I had an incredible 12 point step out 15 seconds after I let my arrow fly. Theyre both on my wall by the way. If I'd used a gun I never would have have seen him

 

[AnselHazen]

Awesome, glad I could be of help. Any time I've hunted with mine I used winchester 64gr soft points but 95% of the time I prefer my bow. Did you have any luck with your AR? I'm using an EO 512 on mine, few other goodies in it as well haha

Got out a few times with a buddy, we saw plenty of track but never got to pull the trigger. Too mild a year this year. Only once during season was there any snow.

 

[Slinky556]

Its been real mild here too, I dont think theyve been forced to come out of their nocturnal patterns with the weather staying as warm as it has and food not being as scarce

 

[meanmrmustard]

Thats what first got me into archery. Then after I made a shot one early morning and buried my arrow deep into a beautiful 8 point I had an incredible 12 point step out 15 seconds after I let my arrow fly. Theyre both on my wall by the way. If I'd used a gun I never would have have seen him

Why would you not have had the opportunity to take both deer with a rifle?

I've had a group of does continue feeding around their collapsed comrade as I took aim on doe number 2 after the shot.

 

[Slinky556]

Personally Ive never fired a rifle into a group than the remaining didnt flee. I've let many an arrow fly that the remaining did little more than briefly look up and around.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Personally Ive never fired a rifle into a group than the remaining didnt flee. I've let many an arrow fly that the remaining did little more than briefly look up and around.

They startle, but without a reason to bolt other than a loud bang, boom, kapow, I've seen resettle rather than flee. Especially when on a plot. If it sounds like thunder, and they don't smell me, why run? Logic would tell one to run at the sight of a fallen comrade. Deer aren't very logical!

 

[Corn-Picker]

Personally Ive never fired a rifle into a group than the remaining didnt flee. I've let many an arrow fly that the remaining did little more than briefly look up and around.

I've only had them stick around with a DRT shot on the lead doe. If they aren't DRT and they take off running the others will follow in my experience.