Who started this .380 auto trend?

Here is one explanation.

http://www.southernoutdoorlife.com/mouseguns/pocksize.htm

Then, around 1973, a little home business produced a tiny pistol, the SeeCamp .32acp. (The Seecamp .32 could only use SilverTip JHP ammo, worthles ballistics.) NAA immediately tried to copy it with their Guardian .32, heavy little clunker. A Swedish designer by the name of George Kellgren, who had tinkered with firearms like the Grendel brand, wanted to do something like the GLOCK. In around 1995 he contracted with a CNC machine shop in Cocoa, Florida to produce a polymer framed .32acp pistol he designed, and Kel-Tec was born. Lighter than the Seecamp or NAA, it's sales soared. None of these .32's had ballistics to even remotely produce a one-shot-stop, but with a full magazine and rapid fire could easily discourage a felon.

When, exactly the small .380's came on the market, I'm not sure. Kel-Tec just up-sized their P32, left off the slide lock, and had success with the P3AT, 1st gen. model. Seecamp made one and so did NAA. Now the market is flooded with 380's, some of them pure junk. But the pocket gun craze has made sales of all these pistols, many with polymer frames, soar.

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While there were several 380's around before it (including the somewhat similar Keltec), the LCP took the 380 mainstream at a time when Conceal Carry was becoming a trend.

cz 83's were popular many years ago overseas.

What's your question? Why there are a lot of small .380s used for CCW? Or why someone came up with the .380 in the first place?

The .380 is about as powerful of a round you can squeeze into a small blowback pistol (9x18 is a bit more powerful, but only by a bit). Using a blowback mechanism means that the guns can be smaller, cheaper, and easier to make than something requiring a locking breech system.

.38 Special is rimmed (not great for semi autos) and 9mm is powerful enough that you really need a locking breech or a heavy slide, which adds size and complexity. More recent pistols have been able to combine a locking breech and small size, but this is a rather recent trend, and was certainly not around in the early 1900's when the .380 was designed.

Additionally .380 can be an interesting round to suppress. Almost all loads are subsonic (except some +P loads) which makes it easier to find subsonic ammo, and the low powder volume means it works better with small suppressors (unlike other rounds like .45 ACP which is also subsonic in normal loadings). This allows you to have good suppression from small guns with small suppressors and still have adequate terminal performance.

Basically .380 lets you take a small .32acp sized pistol and squeeze some more performance and lethality out of the gun without having to completely redesign the weapon. Whether you like it or have a need for it, I can't answer (but given the thread I can guess your thoughts on the matter), but the round did have a use and the fact that it's still a major player over 100 years after introduction means it's here to stay.

The .380 ACP dates back to 1908. It was the caliber that killed Prince Ferdinand and started WWI. The 9MM short has over a Century of history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.380_ACP

I'll also point out if all you have is ball ammo, which was the case for most of last century at self defense distances there is not a lot of difference between a .380 and a 9mm. In both cases they are going to over penetrate and you get a hole .355 in size that goes all the way through the body.

ritepath said:

While there were several 380's around before it (including the somewhat similar Keltec), the LCP took the 380 mainstream at a time when Conceal Carry was becoming a trend.

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I don't think the LCP came out until around 2007 or 8, it was way late to the game so really can't take credit for making the 380 mainstream. Just as an example the Keltec P3AT (mentioned above) came out in 2003 and was pretty consistently sold out as fast as they could build them, so credit should probably go to them for making polymer framed 380's mainstream. Prior to that you have the Colt Mustang 380's, Bersa etc., but all were alloy or steel framed.

Telekinesis said:

The .380 is about as powerful of a round you can squeeze into a small blowback pistol (9x18 is a bit more powerful, but only by a bit). Using a blowback mechanism means that the guns can be smaller, cheaper, and easier to make than something requiring a locking breech system.

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While a .380 can be done in a blowback just fine, the majority of the small pocket .380 guns are indeed locked breech. Using that mechanism allows them to make the guns even smaller/thinner than they otherwise would.

John moses browning started the 380acp trend in 1908.
I been shooting steel at 25 and 50 yards for giggles.with my LCP
Maybe my hands are deformed because it certainly isnt uncomfortable to shoot.
I carry one and dont feel unarmed

"Who started this .380 trend?"
It was a conspiracy between Ian Fleming and Interarms. Ian Fleming made the ppk a legend, then Interarms refused to offer their ppk's at any quantity in anything except .380.

Of course, there was some collusion between the aforementioned parties and ammo manufacturers who have finally developed .380 ammunition suitable for SD.

Really though, I think the trend of small .380's has really taken off because of advances in bullet technology in the last 20 years or so, the proliferation of shall-issue CCW permits, and peoples desires to be armed but not inconvenienced by large carry weapons.

Who started the .380 trend?

John Browning, of course!

I have (3) 380acp pistols, and they fill my "this looks like a job for discreet, but effective" carry needs pretty well.

Gotta be the Colt 1908.



That sure is a handsome pistol.

I will point out that .380 has always been popular. It was very popular and then import restrictions made it very difficult to import small .380s. Still does for that matter. This created a vacuum in the market and a few years later carry started to become legal in a lot of places. Which created a demand for small carry guns that some people figured out how to fill. So it was not a who but what you would expect, Supply and demand and interference by the government on the market followed by government deregulation of something else that had unintended consequences and led to the creation of a product.

380 does not have the 32acp rimlock issue.
If we're talking revolvers, I'm all for 32s though.

If rimlock really was an issue then FN1900, SVD, Coonan .357, and Ruger Mark IV would all be impossible.

Colt made the cartridge popular but as far as the micro pistol craze Star DK was the forerunner. The Star DK upon being banned by the 68 GCA evolved into an american made frame and all DK parts, the FI Model D, Colt almost took that pistol as their own and FI actually made a few Colt Pony pistols before the idea was scrubbed. Ironically the later Mustang is a slightly modified Star DK as is the Kimber Micro and Sig P238. All other micro pistols came long after the Star DK.

silicosys4 said:

"Who started this .380 trend?"
It was a conspiracy between Ian Fleming and Interarms. Ian Fleming made the ppk a legend, then Interarms refused to offer their ppk's at any quantity in anything except .380.

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Of course, Bond used one in .32, not .380. Upgrading him from his .25 Beretta, Q told him the .32 "hits like a brick through a plate glass window!"

First John Moses Browning, then Kel-Tec.

I have one of each.

John Moses Browning in 1908

HexHead said:

Of course, Bond used one in .32, not .380. Upgrading him from his .25 Beretta, Q told him the .32 "hits like a brick through a plate glass window!"

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Good 'ol Bond! If I had a dollar for every time that fictional character has been used in a serious discussion of firearms, as if he were somehow relevant to the real world, I'd be rich. "Well James Bond carried a .25, that means they must be really great!"

I was less JMB as it was Colt. The 1908 was sold here, then the cartridge introduced in Europe, where it became the mainstay round competing with .32 for standard LEO weapons. That didn't change until after WWII when agencies there began rearming after the war.

When the GCA of '68 was passed it got a lot harder to import the Euro guns, like the Walther PPK. The market was repressed due to CCW being repressed so most handgunners in daily carry were using issue rounds like .38 Special. 9mm then came into play after the S&W M59 was adopted by the Illinois highway patrol, and others began looking at Euro "wondernines" for issue.

Still no .380 market worth catering too until FL legalized CCW, at which point companies like Kahr sprang up to sell single stack 9's as there were very few - most were double stack duty guns. The .25ACP market wasn't well represented due to zinc die cast guns and their deserved reputation.

It was Keltec who offered a polymer .380 circa 2003 who got the ball rolling. First, the CCW market was expanding state by state nearly every year and Keltec saw it as an opportunity. Second, Glock had proven the viability of making and selling polymer guns by shoving S&W, SIG, and others off the LEO market with their lower priced guns that initially were reliable and well engineered. Offering a locked breech made the recoil acceptable, the polymer frame cut 25% off the price compared to reputable all metal guns, and it was just good timing.

From there it went thru some early beta gun ownership to become an acceptable pocket carry gun, at which point Ruger found itself no longer controlled by the founder, Bill Ruger, and eager to make products to sell to the expanding self defense and tactical market. The saw an opportunity to clean up the lines and put the construction of a similar gun to mass production QC they knew they could achieve, and offered the LCP. After some new owners negligent discharges they even recalled the first 80,000 guns and refitted them with slightly altered parts to prove they would stand behind it, which as a marketing move sold their Customer Service reputation. It's highly arguable the "improvements" were needed but in comparison to the already established QC issues of the first generation P3ATs of constant rehabilitation, fluff and buff, etc it worked. There was also the "internet factor," - a lot of younger gun buyers were more than aware of the Keltec issues even if they didn't play as large a part in any one gun owners use. A handful of returns or customer alterations to seemingly make them work got a large exposure - probably more than who would ever buy one. Ruger may have bobbled it but they quickly recovered and rode the wave in. At the time it was either the less refined looking Keltec or the Ruger as far as most new shoppers were concerned, and with the guns priced at $260 or less vs. an American made PPK for over $500, plus lighter and smaller, it was an easy decision.

Who started all this? It's been going on for over a century, started by Colt right here in America.

If you mean who started the plastic .380 pocket gun craze, then Kel-tec is your answer.

I cared .380s back in the 1970's, but there was nothing trouser pocket about them. I suppose the FI Model D could have been pocket carried, but not the Beretta M 1934 or Astra Constable, though they did get pocket carried in winter coats.....that I could have "pocket carried" a 1911 or S&W N frame 4 inch in.

Since the end of "the Great War" Americans have seemed to prefer .380 over .32 ACP even though .32 ACP continued as a police cartridge in Europe into the 1980's at least. We Americans seem to have a bigger is better attitude.

Sure there were very expensive steel and aluminum .380s that were small before Kel-Tec but they were not cheap and there were Davis blowback single action zinc-o-ramas that were cheap, cheap, cheap that a fair number of folks dropped in pockets.....I just was never that comfortable with a striker fired single action wandering around loose near my nether regions. I actually did have a camoflauged belt holster "Pager Holder/ smokes holder" rig I wore a Davis in on rare occasions in the early part of the last decade when I could carry nothing else and felt bad about carrying anything expensive. (on the theory that six FMJ .380 beat, screaming like a little girl and hoping for the best)

I really do have to say it was Kel-tec that started it and then Ruger knew a good thing when they saw it and put a more recognized and trusted name on it. Might be interesting to know how many those two have sold. Might shock some folks.

-kBob

The Bond movies were responsible for the PPK and PPK's, I carried one for 20 yrs as a back up in NYC. But the line from Russia with love, that went "It has a kick like a Brick through a plate glass window" was one of the best marketing lines ever.
I carried one because at the time, it was about the smallest thinest auto pistol you could find that had any power, was accurate, and you could reload quickly.
I wish I still had mine, but it was damaged in an incident.