A new caliber - or not?

Because the original 9mm got essentially the same muzzle energy with much less powder and bullet mass as the .45ACP, I'd assumed it was some kind of careful optimization. Nope, turns out the German military insisted on a bullet bigger than .30 (much like ours demanded something larger than .38 that led to the .45, along with the proven performance of the .45 Long Colt) so George Luger chopped off the bottle neck of the .30 Luger and crammed in a 9mm bullet to minimized changes to manufacturing his P-08.

My source for this is the "Tales of the Gun" show on the History channel. Also apparently a P-08 was made in .45ACP for the US trials, but was soon withdrawn when the large German contract was won, leaving the lone known surviving example as a true "million dollar gun".

Not new to me, but I admit I've been surprised over the last few years at the apparent new found popularity of the 9MM. I've always enjoyed the wide variety of pistols, revolvers and carbines available in 9MM. But it does seem there is an ever widening selection of guns available in the caliber. I'm enjoyin' it, but still kinda amazed. A few of my eclectic accumulation of 9s.

Is that a pair of the the new P210's on the RH side? Nice camp Carbine, also.

I like the 45ACP and the 9mm. They both have their place.

You really want to talk "new caliber" try the 5.7 X 28mm. THIS one's
being put through the mill. It's only been around since 1990, and although
it seems very effective in the field, the ballistics math and gelatin tests are not
so rosy.

Entropy, yes. Those two are the German P210 Legend, fixed and adjustable sight versions. The Marlin Camp 9 is the only "9N" factory nickel version I ever ran across, so had to buy it for $299.00. The Marlins are fun little plinkers, out to a hundred yards or so for me.

The popularity of the effete 9mm is utterly perplexing.

Mr. K, I believe it's just that, in general, people LIKE to be fooled. For some strange reason people tend to follow myths, not facts. And tend to forged, that in guns, just like in anything else, there is a fashion trend. That's it, nothing more. Simple fashion, that may (will) change after 10 - 15 years. To be more precise - in this case it's a confusion between the cartridge and the platform. One uses a century old design, deemed obsolete, but resurrected with modern materials & technology (1911), while the other uses a a century old design, deemed obsolete, but resurrected with modern materials & technology (Glock, XD, S&W M&P and etc.)... Do you see the difference between those two platforms - striking it is! Like, you try to explain to some polymer-striker-fired-wundergun-fanboy, that his Springfield XD uses a trigger mechanism not much different than one found in a FN 1910...

Mizar said:

Like, you try to explain to some polymer-striker-fired-wundergun-fanboy, that his Springfield XD uses a trigger mechanism not much different than one found in a FN 1910...

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Trigger or striker from the FN? I think they have a std trigger but are striker fired.

"trigger mechanism", "firing mechanism", "action mechanism", "action type", etc., whatever - semantics. OK, I believe "firing mechanism" is more precise...

I remember reading somewhere that supposedly back in 1906 the German High Command was actually looking for a less than lethal pistol cartridge. The theory behind this was if you wounded an enemy soldier you possibly exposed several of his fellow soldiers being hit as they attempted to try and help him. More enemy casualties meant fewer enemy soldiers to contend with. Also wounded soldiers would require medical attention, thereby tying up more of the enemy's resources.

I don't know how true or historically accurate any of this is but I could see how it might be logical (and advantageous), to the German generals at the time.

Seems the old heavy and slow or fast and light debate is still alive.

I only became interested in 9mm when manufacturers started to make subcompact sized pistols for it. Up until then it didn't appeal to me at all. Then, just when I was about to get one, Kahr made the PM45 and I lost interest in the 9mm again. Recently have a hankering for either an HK P30SK or FN FNS9C since both have models with thumb safeties, which I like and which are not commonly available these days. So I may end up with a 9mm after all.

.45 and 9mm are my two favorite rounds, accurate and solid.

I tend to shoot 9mm a smidge faster and roughly equally accurate. My question is always "more smaller holes vs fewer bigger holes", carry seems to split 50/50 depending on what I'm loading (and shooting most).

RPRNY said:

The popularity of the effete 9mm is utterly perplexing.

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You have got to be running 10mm or something with "magnum" after it if ya are gonna talk like that

The 45 ACP is indeed "Old Hat." The cartridge is largely unchanged from it's original design which is the 230 gr. bullet at 850 +/- fps. Modern technology has brought about jacket hollowpoints from 185 to 230 grains.

The size of the 45 ACP Cartridge severely limits the size of guns that can be used in limiting it's appeal for conceal carry.

The 9mm cartridge also has been refined with a almost overwhelming choices of ammunition suitable for a wider variety of purposes than the 45 ACP. Choices range from inexpensive 115 gr. FMJ for plinking and target shooting to a wide selection of bullets suitable for self-defense and some bullets designed for deep penetration such as shooting through barriers.

The real appeal of the 9mm though is the wide selection of size of guns it is chambered for. With conceal carry the 9mm offers a good tradeoff of manageable recoil and bullet performance in a smaller size pistol.

The 45 ACP is like a Old Man that shows his age.

The 9mm is like a lady that has discovered the Fountain of Youth.

I've owned both .45acp and 9x19mm handguns.

My first handgun was a Colt Series 70 M1911 in .45acp, purchased in 1978. I carried it in Korea. It's currently my wadcutter gun.

My first 9x19mm handgun was a Walther P-38 purchased around 1983. It's long gone.

I've owned a total of six .45acp handguns, four M1911s, a S&W Model 25-2 and a Colt New Service. I still have three of the M1911s, having disposed of a Norinco M1911 when I needed the money for rent.

I've owned three 9x19mm handguns, a Walther P-38, a Browning Hi Power, and an ex-VA Beach Sheriff's Dept. Glock 19. I still own the Browning and Glock.

The gun I carry every day is a Citadel 3 1/2" M1911.

They're both old and still effective. people will choose one based on what they want it to do.
I like them both and have shot them a lot.
For home, I like the 45acp mainly because it's report indoors isn't nearly as offensive as the 9.
Out and about, I like the 9mm because I can carry more of them in a convenient package.

So long as they are effectively deployed, their strengths and weaknesses are largely moot.

I'm just getting into the .45, and have recently acquired two guns in the caliber, one of which I have not yet shot. The 9mm has been familiar to me since just before I was issued my first one in 1990. Right now, I only own three guns in the caliber, one of which is a "service-type" and one of which is a "concealed-carry" type. The third, bought on a whim from a friend more interested in a fine bottle of rum, pretty much is just "there" (it's a Hi-Point.)

The 9mm is, for me, my go-to caliber in personal and home defense, but I suspect the .45 will be stepping in more over time. The only reason it will take time is that I am a left-handed, double-action shooter, and the two 1911 pistols I know own are right-handed, single-action shooters, so there is a bit of a learning curve for me.

A 9mm vs .45acp thread? You don't see that everyday.

I have enjoyed the 9mm for over 50 years now. I like the .45 too, but I like the less expensive ammo and reload 90 percent anyway.
Last couple of years I have had way more enjoyment shooting my .38 Supers. A little more of a good thing than the 9mm.
Its all good, and everybody be safe!

Az-quailhunter said:

I have enjoyed the 9mm for over 50 years now. I like the .45 too, but I like the less expensive ammo and reload 90 percent anyway.
Last couple of years I have had way more enjoyment shooting my .38 Supers. A little more of a good thing than the 9mm.
Its all good, and everybody be safe!

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My cost to reload either is under $0.06 a round with my cast bullets.

I like 'em both, but can only afford to load one, and I will never NOT own a 1911, so the choice was made. Eventually I will succumb to the 9mm carry gun, probably a G19, or PT111G2. I'll probably buy bulk 9mm and carry ammo, and not load, though I do have @1000 9mm cases from the range, just acquired more today. I did shoot a Rem. R51 today, a friends. Not bad.

They are both great cartridges. The 45 is more fun to shoot. The nine can be smaller and/or hold more bullets. I have several of each and enjoy shooting them all.