357 Magnum has become pointless... for me.

Having read through all 8 pages of this thread, I find a good bit of it is just people getting bent out of shape because they feel the OP was attacking their favorite cartridge. Go back and read the first post. He didn't say the 357 Magnum was no good, he just said he didn't see much point to it. It was a personal opinion, based on his shooting activities and style that a few of us share. No one here (at least I haven't seen it) has told any of you to sell off your 357s. If you like them fine. But we prefer other calibers and choices.

Guess what I'm getting at is, lighten up and don't take this stuff so personally. After all, it's just words on your computer screen.

Dave

MaxP said:

For a person to go "down with a single shot," something of significance has to be hit - period.

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Massad Ayoob has for years praised the 125gr JHP .357 load because, according to him, it's the closest thing he's seen to a "magic bullet" as far as humans are concerned. He talked about one department that switched to the .357 after some problems with stopping power with their previous loads. He said in the next ten shoot outs, the 125gr JHP resulted in "ten instant one-shot stops." One man, hit in the arm, said he felt a "breathtaking blow" after which he was aware of nothing until he woke up in a hospital.

I'm not naive enough to believe that any load is a hundred percent perfect, but I can say it's about the best load you can get out of a revolver meant for stopping humans. And I believe the Sig .357 125gr JHP is about the best one can get out of an automatic, probably besting the .40 and undoubtedly beating the .45 ACP.

Ayoob also notes:

Created to duplicate the best ballistics of the .357 Magnum revolver in a semiautomatic pistol, the .357 SIG spits a 125-grain jacketed hollow point at 1300 to 1400 feet per second, delivering 500-plus foot-pounds of energy. Departments which have adopted it are delighted with the performance, reporting a high frequency of one-shot stops.The Virginia State Police, who issue the .357 SIG Model P229 pistol, told me that they were particularly pleased with the number of felons who dropped and stopped fighting after receiving non-fatal wounds in non-vital parts of the body.

And:

So was the .357 SIG cartridge’s performance in the field. Richmond Virginia Police and the Virginia State Police, after many shootings, reported spectacular performance with the Gold Dot load in the .357 SIG. So did the Texas Department of Public Safety, and other organizations. The round’s tactical penetration in auto bodies was particularly impressive. In Texas, the .357 out of a SIG P226 pierced a semi’s heavy truck body to kill a gunman when .45 slugs hadn’t gotten through. In New Mexico, a trooper dropped a rogue bear with an issue S&W M&P .357 SIG. A Tennessee trooper dumped a would-be cop-killer at spectacular range with his Glock 31. The reports were adding up around the country, and they were impressive. Today, the .357 SIG’s performance has turned me from foe to fan. ... When at home...on a rural property where a long shot is occasionally offered, my flat-shooting Glock 31 with 16 Gold Dot .357 SIG loads on board is often what’s on my hip.

When other bullets overpenetrate, the .357 SIG/.357 Magnum doesn't. When going cross country, especially out West, there's alway a .357 revolver within reach. When dealing with big, heavy animals, yes, you're absolutely right. But with humans, I choose the .357 Mag for outdoors and .38 Spc when at home. Bigger holes in humans doesn't always mean greater stopping power. I have three .45 ACPs and they're my least favorite guns, though I do like some of the specialty/premium ammunition available for it.

Quick question, when was the recoil of the .357 (irrespective of load) in a full-sized revolver ever "awful?"

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Never. At least not until recently. Back during the days of Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton, you never heard any complaints. I recall articles by gun writers using stainless steel Ruger Security-Sixes and S&W 66s with 6-inch barrels out in the rain and snow, the point being that stainless resisted rust. Now that these companies are putting underlug slabs of steel on their barrels, no one in their right mind carries these boat anchors out in the field, much less hunts with them. The S&W 686 is, in my view, the best production .357 on the market. But would I ever lug one out camping or hiking? No. I also wouldn't carry a .44 Mag., and as I get longer in the tooth, even the older .357s are getting a mite heavy. The 3-inch SP-101 is what I'd choose to carry, with a speed-loader. If I couldn't stop a bear with five shots of that, well, bears have to eat too.

CraigC said:

The .357 is a proven fight stopper, that much is true. I guess I look at it like this, while it is important, practicing/training for self defense is a whole lot of work for something that is highly unlikely to ever happen. Conversely, as an outdoorsman, I KNOW that my handguns will be used on flesh. No if's, but's or maybe's.

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That much is true. I don't aim to go out and kill anything just for sport. But if I have to, I aim to kill it. Most animals will run from a loud noise unless it fears it's backed into a corner, then all bets are off. I read several years ago about a couple who were out in the wilderness. They had canoed to a nice spot, pitched a tent and while she cooked, he went out to relieve himself. The food attracted a black bear and it didn't want any witnesses. The guy heard her screams and ran to where the bear was going at her. The only thing he had was a 4-inch folding knife and he and the bear went at it. After a spell it withdrew, leaving a trail of blood behind it. They left their stuff and canoed back to where they had parked, found a ranger and the next day they tracked the bear to its body. It had succumbed to its wounds.

Now no one in their right mind would go toe to toe with a bear armed with a 4-inch folding knife, but this guy prevailed. I don't think I would have chosen to cook hamburgers and what not out in such a place, but it ended okay...except for the bear.

I would suggest the .44Spl over any .357 iteration. It's not that the .357 is necessarily inadequate, it's the .44's and .45's will do the same job better without the recoil or brain piercing blast.

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See, I'm just the opposite. I have no faith in the .44 Spc. The revolvers look intimidating, but the bullets move too slow to suit me. A .357 has more stopping power as far as I'm concerned, but being confident in what you're shooting counts for a lot. If you can kick up the speed a little, that might work, but I'd take a .357 ten times out of ten.

The 629MG is a result of my most profitable trade. It's probably the best version of the type, having forged innards and no lock. It was also tuned by Bob Munden and according to S&W's specs, it's 4oz lighter. Just as my 24-3 is 5oz lighter than my model 29. It's a difference you can feel and it's far more attractive. As I said, it's only 4oz heavier than my 4" model 15 and 3oz more than a 4" model 19. There's A LOT of capability in those few ounces. True, it is tough to beat the model 69 but I'm not going to trade a superior sixgun for an inferior one just to save 3oz. Truth is for a 36-38oz sixgun, I'll take the .44Spl every time.

Consider what Ayoob wrote:

Some bad guys can soak up an unbelievable amount of lead, and the cunning ones run and use cover, making them harder to hit and requiring more shots to stop them. A municipal police sergeant in northern Illinois, Tim Gramins, comes to mind. He pulled over a heavily armed suspect who came out shooting, and the fight was on. In just under a minute, the perpetrator was finally down and dead. During that time, Gramins had fired 33 rounds from his Glock 21 pistol, reloaded as necessary and hit his opponent 14 times with 230-grain Gold Dot .45 bullets. Six of those hits were in what most of us would call “vital zones,” but he fight wasn’t over until Gramin finally had the opportunity for brain shots.During that fight the suspect had gone through two semi-automatic pistols himself and had fired 21 shots.

I regard all round nose bullets as something to avoid (unless it's all you have); however, the .45 round nose will usually win out over the 9mm, unless you get lucky. But those on painkillers and other drugs can prove resilient to many rounds. The .357 is the exception. When using the 125gr JHP .357, it's worked very well on even those stoked on such drugs.

Check out Five Gunfighting Myths for a good read.

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Confederate said:

Consider what Ayoob wrote:

Some bad guys can soak up an unbelievable amount of lead, and the cunning ones run and use cover, making them harder to hit and requiring more shots to stop them. A municipal police sergeant in northern Illinois, Tim Gramins, comes to mind. He pulled over a heavily armed suspect who came out shooting, and the fight was on. In just under a minute, the perpetrator was finally down and dead. During that time, Gramins had fired 33 rounds from his Glock 21 pistol, reloaded as necessary and hit his opponent 14 times with 230-grain Gold Dot .45 bullets. Six of those hits were in what most of us would call “vital zones,” but he fight wasn’t over until Gramin finally had the opportunity for brain shots.During that fight the suspect had gone through two semi-automatic pistols himself and had fired 21 shots.

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Taking a quick look at the Lucky Gunner testing of Speer .45acp 230gr Gold Dot, it looks slow and doesn't penetrate well.

https://www.luckygunner.com/bulk-45-acp-ammo-45acp230jhpsgd-20#geltest

Seems like a poor choice, unless avoiding over-penetration in the primary concern. I'd think at roughly 750fps, a flat nosed solid would have put better holes in that guy. My point is that you can find bad loads in any caliber. I recall reading some contraversy over the effectiveness of the 110gr .357 mag hollow point once used by the Border Patrol. 9mm Winchester Silvertips supposedly suffered unreliable expansion and so poor performance. And I believe the .38 Special lead round nose cartridge once issued to police officers in many departments was known to some as the "Widow Maker", because the bad guy was still coming after 6 hits and only finally bled out after the officer was killed.

Shooting my Ruger Security six SS with a 2.75" barrel just brings a smile to my face, with my reloads the accuracy is very good.

Confederate said:

Massad Ayoob has for years

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Ayoob has also said that handloads are a bad idea for self defense and would be used against you by a zealous prosecutor. Even though it's never actually happened.

Here we are with myth & legend again. Have you actually had a .44Spl fail or are you just judging by paper ballistics???

I agree with the OP … it takes only a combination of 6 different calibers to make the 357M pointless

Choctaw said:

I have .357s because they are fun to shoot. Doesn't anyone own guns anymore for the fun factor?

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Besides for SD, it's the only reason I have guns. I hunt for fun, I go to the range for fun and I reload for fun. Doubt very much come the Apocalypse(despite what one sees on "Supernatural"), if any amount of guns is going to save me or anyone else.

CraigC said:

Ayoob has also said that handloads are a bad idea for self defense and would be used against you by a zealous prosecutor. Even though it's never actually happened.

Here we are with myth & legend again. Have you actually had a .44Spl fail or are you just judging by paper ballistics???

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Exactly! Ayoob started that nonsense that to this day gets cited as fact.

I have trouble understanding the emotional attachment some have for calibers.

^^
And for Mas Ayoob

mcb said:

25oz 44 Mag sound painful. I wonder which is more painful. Hot 44 Mag in the the 329PD or hot 357 Mag in a 340PD. I have shot 340PD and it was one of the more unpleasant revolvers I have ever shot. I will have to find someone with a 329PD and see if it worst.

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Yep... I have a 360PD, which is the external-hammer version of the 340PD. With a medium-power .357 load (Remington Golden Sabers), the effect was "exhilarating but mostly tolerable." With a hot load (I believe it was PMC), the effect of firing off a cylinder-full was like opening a rift in time and space -- I thought I had been propelled into a different time continuum. I decided right there that, for me, the handgun would serve adequately well with a decent load in .38 Special.

.

A .357 J-frame is the most uncomfortable revolver I have EVER fired. That includes the .500JRH and .500Maximum.

MaxP said:

I have trouble understanding the emotional attachment some have for calibers.

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I understand nostalgia, but we have to be realistic about what we're nostalgic about.
I have an affinity for the 16-gauge shotgun because it's the first gun I owned, and one passed down for several generations.
So, I am somewhat emotionally attached to the old 16. I have bought another one since and likely will acquire more.

However, and I think this is what you're getting at, I don't attribute any special ability or quality to the caliber/gauge because of that. I'm well aware that the 16-gauge is not the most logical choice for a shotgunner.
Ammo is hard to find, it won't do anything the 20-gauge won't, and they generate too much recoil for what you're getting since many are built on 20-gauge frames.

But I'm realistic. I may love it, but I also realize it's not the best thing out there. I think that's where people go wrong.

CraigC said:

A .357 J-frame is the most uncomfortable revolver I have EVER fired. That includes the .500JRH and .500Maximum.

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I didn't even care for shooting a 642 in 38 Special +p. I must be too used to shooting guns that actually fit my hand and are an appropriate weight for the cartridge. My S&W 460 mag is more comfortable to shoot, because it fits me.

A Ruger SP101 is about as small a 357 as I'm willing to shoot.

Hi...
FWIW...the .357Mag is not dead to me.
I own handguns in a lot of different calibers and shoot them all regularly.
Almost every range trip includes at least one .357Mag revolver. It is an excellent combination of power, accuracy, effectiveness and accuracy. I sometimes carry a .357Mag revolver for protection and have complete confidence in the cartridge.
It is not the only gun I carry...I usually carry a 1911 in .45ACP which I also have complete confidence in.
I don't consider the .357Mag to have excessive recoil but then my revolvers are a S&W 686, Colt Troopers and BackHawks. I don't particularly care for small handguns so I don't own any.
The smallest handguns I own are a S&W Model 10, a stainless Taurus .44Spl with 3" barrel and adjustable sights and a nickel Colt Combat Commander in .45ACP.
I shoot and open carry any number of different revolvers in every caliber from.22LR up through .44Mag and just about every thing in between, so I do have a good bit of experience with shooting and carrying handguns.
When hunting with a handgun I tend to start with .41Mag(my personal favorite), and work up through .44Mag and .45Colt with appropriate handloads.
I have used the .357Mag for deer hunting and black bear(no actual shot opportunity) but with more experience I believe that it shouldn't be used for black bear.
I think the .357Mag is best used for self defense and hunting animals like groundhogs up to deer with appropriate weight and velocity loads.

It definitely has its uses and I have no intention of getting rid of the half dozen that I own and actually contemplate adding some more. It is a fun cartridge to shoot with bullets ranging from 125-180 gr HP/XTPs and LSWCs.

Ayoob says a lot of things. In "The Gravest Extreme." page 98 he considers the 1911 as an "experts only" weapon. In discussing women specifically, he notes that .45s and magnums are too powerful for small hands to control, page 40(as if hand size determined strength). In a 2006 Combat Handguns issue, Ayoob mentioned 1911's as an option for women and men with small hands who have trouble qualifying with other designs.

There are many experts out there with many opinions that are not necessarily factual or realistic. It is important to evaluate the content based on the content and not based on who said it.

CraigC said:

... Have you actually had a .44Spl fail or are you just judging by paper ballistics???

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I don't want you to take this as hostility, but I'm curious how much experience you've had with .357 failing. I would pose the same question to MaxP. I understand you all have extensive experience hunting big game with a handgun, and I can understand empirically reasoning that bigger bore cartridges are better for that purpose. You've made some compelling arguments why the big bores are more attractive than the .357 -- but to what degree have you actually proven to yourself that .357 is inferior?

labnoti said:

I don't want you to take this as hostility, but I'm curious how much experience you've had with .357 failing. I would pose the same question to MaxP. I understand you all have extensive experience hunting big game with a handgun, and I can understand empirically reasoning that bigger bore cartridges are better for that purpose. You've made some compelling arguments why the big bores are more attractive than the .357 -- but to what degree have you actually proven to yourself that .357 is inferior?

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It’s just physics, not emotion. I base my opinion on the holes in the data that has been collected and I have used and seen used all manner of calibers on all manner of game, and well bigger is better all things being “equal.” Why the emotional attachment??

MaxP said:

Exactly! Ayoob started that nonsense that to this day gets cited as fact.

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I oft wondered iffin' it had any thing to do with him being heavily sponsored by ammo manufacturers........

MaxP said:

I have trouble understanding the emotional attachment some have for calibers.

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^^^I agree. I also have trouble with folks that have such disdain for certain calibers and platforms.
Kinda like the old Ford vs Chevy thing.....or better yet, the Harley vs Honda thing.

Most of us work hard for our monies.....we should be able to spend it on what we want without feeling like we have to validate the choices we make. Just as we should not think we need to dis other folk's choices to validate ours.

The .357 was around long before most of us were born, and it will be around long after all of us are gone and forgotten. I got a funny feeling half a century from now my sons and grand-kids will still be enjoying mine, along with the other handgun calibers I have. Odds are there will be arguments then about which is best and which is pointless. That poor horse is gonna be dang awful sore by then.