the gas tube they are using is for an ar15, it is NOT made for a large AR rifle,
I'll go ahead and assume you are correct, although i'm not convinced you are since you haven't given us a single shred of evidence this is the case other than you stating it is so. But since it makes no difference either way, for the sake of argument.
You are wrong, and you say it yourself in your next statement.
therefor it sits lower to the bore, and has to be bent in order to MAKE it fit.
Well, that sounds like a gas tube made for a large frame AR. A tube was purposefully bent to PA10 specs, and after being made to PA10 specs, it fits and functions just fine.
The armalite tube is the proper tube to be used for the barrel and upper receiver.
No its not, its one option that works identically to the gas tube that PSA uses. The ONLY difference between them is completely cosmetic. The Armalite tube does nothing different than that PSA tube. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
The hole the tube goes through into the receiver is higher on the PA10 than an ar15. This makes the tube too short, with the tube too short, the timing is thrown off, because it exits the gas key before it should.
Again, what are you talking about? What "timing issues"? How many people have to tell you that you don't have a short gas tube and you don't have timing issues arising from a short gas tube, because a short gas tube doesn't cause timing issues?
A short gas tube causes short stroke issues. You just keep regurgitating stuff you don't understand.
They are also under sizing the gas port, and this along with the tube being impeded where it enters the gas block, which many have experience with PA10 rifles out of the box.
OOOH, the plot thickens. Now PA10's are undergassed at the port, undergassed at the gas key, but still overgassed at the buffer! Very interesting. That would certainly be a first, better get that well documented. Do your friends over at AR308 know you are making them look like idiots by claiming they taught you everything you know?
What is your gas port size? Mine is 0.089. Do you know what the generally accepted gas port size range is for an AR 308 rifle is? I really doubt you do, lol.
A proper running large platform AR rifle should not kick like a mule
Uh huh. So how many lbs. of recoil should 'A large platform AR" have?
You have no clue know what an AR 308 "should" kick like. You are basing this opinion on two other rifles you shot that might or might not have had muzzle brakes, might or might not have been several pounds heavier, might or might not have had the same gas system and barrel length as your rifle, and might or might not have been weak steel cased blasting ammo. Your comparison is so unscientific it is useless as anything more than an anecdotal experience. It certainly does not illustrate what a "proper running large platform AR rifle should kick like".
I don't know if you noticed, but muzzle brakes are a pretty popular addition to any AR 308, because the design tends to recoil hard, because the design tends to be overgassed, because the gas port specs are on the large end for AR 308 rifles because overgassing is pretty much universally preferred to undergassing.
Again, this is completely subjective, of no value to an analysis of the actual function of the rifle.
I agree with you. A properly running AR of any kind should not have FTE or FTF issues. How many have you had so far with your rifle?
Its your argument, its your burden of proof to provide.
And to clarify here, these were PSA assembled complete rifles that shipped with these types of problems.
Given how misleading you've been in this thread, I no longer consider your word to be any kind of definitive evidence. You are going to have to provide links.
the buffer they are using is an H buffer which is the wrong weight for the 308 cartridge.
According to you. We just have to believe you.
So what is the average bolt velocity differences between the H and the H3 buffer?
How many rounds, on average, does the rifle last with an H buffer as compared with an H3 buffer before parts breakage becomes a problem?
What parts start breaking first?
How much longer does the addition of an H3 buffer keep the bolt locked closed during firing, allowing for pressure to drop before opening?
There is a range of weights that work for the PA10, depending on what extraction, ejection, recoil, and reliability characteristics you want. Less weight in the buffer and a larger gas port means more reliability with weaker ammo while still allowing reliable although vigorous function with full power ammo. Think PSA wanted their gun to run well with cheap, commonly found, commonly used, underpowered steel case plinking ammo? I'll bet that was a consideration.
Then we can move on to the buffer being an odd depth, which leads to the bolt carrier crashing into the ears unless you notch the tube and screw it in another turn.
Impossible. According to you the rifles have a short gas tube, so this is literally impossible. If a gun has a short gas tube that does not engage the carrier key enough, short stroking is the result. Short stroking means your bolt is not traveling fully to the rear, which means it isn't hitting the receiver. You gotta pick one. Either the rifles are all being built with PSA AR15 gas tubes that are too short and leave the gun undergassed and short stroking, Or the recoil system isn't strong enough to handle the recoil and the carrier is hitting the rear of the receiver.
Since it is one, not the other, and since the gas tubes are in reality fine, This carrier timing issue is about the only argument you've made that has a leg to stand on, so I can understand you beating it like a rented mule after I've acknowledged it several times, so here's a bone for you.
You are correct.
This is an ongoing issue with PSA that I experienced myself. They should clean that mess up.
The buffer spring is also too weak to handle the recoil and force of the rifle during firing. This all combines to throw the timing off.
Impossible, according to you. The rifles are undergassed from having a short gas tube, remember? Come on now.
Also, explain "timing" to us, since you've used it to describe several different processes by now, and I'm not sure you fully understand the differences.
This is all due to there being no formal specification for the large frame AR rifles, and PSA winging it with the parts they already carry in their inventory. Is all that specific enough for you?
Its specific, sure, and also wrong. PSA isn't winging it, ar-newbies stepping into builds they don't understand are winging it. PSA is putting together good running rifles, ar-newbies are putting the wrong buffer system together, putting Armalite pattern parts on DPMS pattern rifles, looking at gas tubes and calling perfectly functioning parts "wrong", taking unverified, untested, unproved, dubious and suspect information as fact, etc...
PSA is fine.
I already outlined all of that multiple times and encouraged you to look at other large frame rifles that are good shooters to know.
Lol, no you haven't. The only PA10 rifle you can verify as a good shooter or not is your own, and despite your best efforts to prove otherwise, is, according to you, sub MOA and functions perfectly.
Any AR platform rifle large or small, has the gas tube extend into the center of the cam pin cut out in the upper receiver.
Except for the ones that don't. Anyways, you are posting a lot of things as fact that you couldn't possibly know, "ar-newbie". This is yet another case of that. Look up "Proprietary system" and tell me what that means. Where the gas tube extends is only relevant if the rifle doesn't function correctly. You have already admitted the rifles function correctly as built. Therefore, the appearance of the gas tube in comparison to other designs is a MOOT POINT.
This was part of the original design by Eugene Stoner himself. It's exactly how it was intended to work.
AHAHHAHAAHA, fail.
if you think the PA10 or ANY common AR 308 has any parts interchangeability with the original Stoner design, good luck, newbie.
I think he knew a lot more about it that you , I, or anyone else will know.
Lol, not hard, since you apparently know literally nothing about the history of the AR10, the evolution of the AR 308 and its variations, or the original Stoner design. That was what we refer to as "stepping in it".
Look at how far the tube is protruding into the upper, then look at the depth of the gas key. Gee, I wonder why that tube isn't going all the way in like it should? Could it be? they were being cheap and using the plentiful supply of AR15 gas tubes they already have on hand?
Oh, so you are just as ignorant about business as you are about AR 308's.
Tell us, newbie, what exactly would PSA accomplish by abandoning their current efficient and cost effective gas tube source, and spend all the money tool up to produce a completely new part that would meet your standards?
NOTHING. LITERALLY NOTHING. The rifles will function EXACTLY THE SAME. They would be spending money for ZERO improvements.
I am not depending solely on the poster on 308AR forum either, go and look at the recoil system information out there, and the various buffers and weights and their intended purposes. along with spring information as well. The PSA parts are thoroughly out of proper specifications.
You know what? No. You are full of B.S., You misrepresent, you lie, and you straight up don't know what you are talking about.
So newbie, what parts, how far out of spec, and what are the specs? I'm literally scoffing at you right now because its obvious you are so clueless you are saying anything right now to try and make your point.
As to the guy on the other forum who is making a mountain out of a mole hill, he has fixed rifles for other members at no cost to them, and they got back their rifle that worked correctly.
So what? I mean, literally so what? What does that prove? That he can eyeball mistakes ar-newbies like yourself have made and correct them? I already told you, buffer/buffer tube compatibility isn't rocket science, no matter how hard it was for you. Taking a few builds that were too screwed up to run and correcting a few obvious issues does not a mechanical engineer make.
How many of the rifles that he "fixed" were assembled by PSA and already running reliably before he got his hands on them? I'm guessing in those cases he was less "fixing" rifles, and more "tuning" already running rifles to better suit their owners preferences.
That is being correct by actual deed, and not forum battles. So if none of this convinces you to possibly re examine your stance on it.
No, not particularly, for reasons explained above
Being so hard headed about it will never lead to PSA correcting the issues, and stop the nonsense from continuing.
I hate to break it to you, but nothing you or I are saying or doing here is going to make one iota of difference in how PSA decides to do business.
I would much rather see them fix these issues, and start shipping great running rifles, which will lead to them continuing production, so that those of us who did get one working right, can still obtain the proprietary parts (takedown pins, magazine release and bolt catch) long into the future should the need arise.
There are no issues other than the carrier timing. They are shipping great running rifles. They are going to continue production because in the end, the ratio of ar-newbies who mess up their builds to good running rifles is heavily on PSA's side, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
What a crock. You talk about how to have a conversation that benefits PSA, yet you've been completely dishonest about your experiences, and falsifying issues in order to unfairly complain about PSA. I have a suggestion about where you can shove that sanctimonious nonsense.
I didn't know any of this before I built my rifle, and that I can freely admit. However, I did a lot of research, and still do.
You need to tune your internet B.S. filter more than you need to tune your rifle.
I learn by doing, which is exactly how all of us got to the point we are.
B.S. You have a perfectly running, perfectly functioning PA10 that groups sub MOA. The majority of your time on this thread has been spent trying to convince me you have problems that you actually don't, like your gas tube. If you learned by doing, you'd know your rifle functions fine and is sub MOA accurate, two facts that should enamor you heavily towards your rifle. But you don't talk about that. You talk about internet theories about recoil systems, theories about H3 buffers being absolutely necessary, parts out of specification, basically trying to invent out of thin air any reason you can to be unhappy. That is not "doing". "Doing" is shooting and enjoying your rifle, and acknowledging that the product you received was more than satisfactory.
I am no expert, but I am far from being stupid and deserving of the problems I did have.
You "deserve" whatever problems you make for yourself. Those are called consequences, newbie.
Maybe if you didn't just rush out of the gate telling me what a moron I was, this would have gone entirely a different path.
You said it, not me. I think you should review this conversation though, before you falsely accuse me. You were the one who was censored and got the administrative warning for inappropriate language and personal attacks, not me, "Twinky". Notice a particular point at which I started responding with a little less...respect?
I show you what, why, and how,
No, no you didn't.
and am rebuked with none of that matters.
"None of that matters"?
Can you read? I've been pretty darn detailed with my replies...and unlike you, I've actually acknowledged and directly addressed your arguments, and clarified myself when you've asked.
That is the mark of ignorance on your part.
Ironic that you'd call anyone ignorant, newbie.