Laser deterrant?

This is a very lame idea that's repeated in almost every laser thread. It's just as bad as the shotgun racking nonsense.

My personal experience with red and green lasers is they can contribute significantly to the precision of the point of impact with slow, aimed fire, especially with guns that otherwise have a very short sight radius and poor sights (j frame). Both red and green lasers are practically unusable in bright sunlight. And both red and green slow down the process of acquiring sight picture on the target and extend the time to the shot. I have been impressed with the quality, materials, and construction of the Crimson Trace products, irrespective of the laser -- in other words, they're good grips besides having a good laser.

My observation is that lasers on handguns are out with shooters. And on carbines they remain desirable primarily as IR lasers with teams that use NV because the whole team can see the dot and nobody else. On handguns, I just don't see anyone serious about shooting using them or paying any attention to them. Compare them to miniature red dot sights, and it's pretty obvious they've been relegated to gimick status. Another thing that's telling is there are almost no training academies, classes, or courses with laser curriculum. If something fundamentally changes the process of how you aim the gun, and there's no training that uses it, I conclude it's not being taken seriously. Red dots, on the other hand, do not so fundamentally change how aiming is done. They could be used with the same training curriculum as existing classes. But red-dot specific classes are also popular in many of the training academies.

The exception is Smith & Wesson. They (AOBC) bought Crimson Trace and they're not going to let it go to waste. I see they are aggressively marketing guns with lasers, especially their most popular Shields and j-frames. They also paid (sponsored) Gunsite to offer a one-time Crimson Trace class (coming in November). I believe they see oem lasers as a value-add for which they can persuade some customers to pay more for.

MI2600 said:

Anyone have thoughts? Agree. Disagree.

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Disagree. This isn't Hollywood fantasy.

It can be a deterrent....and here's a true story to back it up. On my sons first deployment to Afghanistan, I purchased and sent him a set of Crimson Trace laser grips for his Beretta 92. First person in their battalion to have a set. One night while at a checkpoint near the Pakistan border a truck ignored a stop and attempted to run the checkpoint. My son pulled his M9 and the laser dot painted the cabs occupants. When they saw the light dancing through the windshield on them, panic breaking ensued and the truck slid to a stop. They knew exactly what the dot meant and took it seriously. Later on Crimson Trace grips became a standard issue item.

While the above may hold true most people are not going to look down at themselves in a gunfight. If there are a group of them together lighting up the leader might make them think for a bit but otherwise not much use IMHO.

FROGO207 said:

While the above may hold true most people are not going to look down at themselves in a gunfight. If there are a group of them together lighting up the leader might make them think for a bit but otherwise not much use IMHO.

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This. You might get it to reflect off something, but are they going to notice (and in time)? Guarding a checkpoint is one thing - typically warnings are given and certain protocols are expected to be followed. For personal defensive use, the bad guy isn't likely to notice or care in the time it takes to line the dot up. If things have progressed to the point where I need to pull a weapon out I have no intention of seeing if the other guy/s notice the dot.

I have lasers on several of my guns. They are there to aid ME when I am in a hurry and/or in low light. If the laser doesn't come on I'm reverting to old fashioned sighting or indexing.

MI2600 said:

Later, I began thinking that maybe seeing a red dot his chest might be a deterrent in itself for a bad guy.

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Stop thinking that.

FROGO207 said:

While the above may hold true most people are not going to look down at themselves in a gunfight.

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I believe that sums it up. Looks cool in movies but I simply do not see it happening in reality.

Ron

Rembrandt said:

It can be a deterrent....and here's a true story to back it up. On my sons first deployment to Afghanistan, I purchased and sent him a set of Crimson Trace laser grips for his Beretta 92. First person in their battalion to have a set. One night while at a checkpoint near the Pakistan border a truck ignored a stop and attempted to run the checkpoint. My son pulled his M9 and the laser dot painted the cabs occupants. When they saw the light dancing through the windshield on them, panic breaking ensued and the truck slid to a stop. They knew exactly what the dot meant and took it seriously. Later on Crimson Trace grips became a standard issue item.

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You present here a terrific example of a situation where the laser obviously did work as a deterent, without question. So the following will have to be have to be viewed with that in mind:

Normally, in many situations, a laser ought not be thought of as a deterent. In Rembrandt's example the potential thugs saw the dot on a window. In many situations there will be no window. A dot on the perp's chest won't be seen by the perp unless he is prompted to look down. Do you wish your life be dependant on that happening in a timely fashion?
I would not.
The perp might see a point of red or green from the emitter. Will he care? If he does and has aimed his weapon, might that itself possibly prompt him to fire first?
Well.... and basically all the caveats posted by those previous too.


But I still give credit to Rembrandt for pointing out a real situation where it actually did work. His son kept his cool, played it well, and made it work.
I'd like to say "thank you" to his son for his intelligent service. Good soldiering, that!

Tommygunn said:

But I still give credit to Rembrandt for pointing out a real situation where it actually did work. His son kept his cool, played it well, and made it work.

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I would guess that his son would have been a lot more hesitant to try that if his M9 had been the only weapon present.

Disagree. The only time someone is afraid of a laser pointer on a firearm is in Hollywood dream land. Both of my carry guns have a laser/light sight. And I have exactly zero expectation that mister bad person will be scared of the light or laser.

I have a few hand guns with lasers I think they could be advantageous in some situations.
What lasers seem to do best is get threads locked quickly.

MI2600 said:

I recently bought a Beretta with my first laser sight, a CTC. During my one range test I found it helped acquire the target much easier. I also found out how wobbly I am. but that's another story.

Later, I began thinking that maybe seeing a red dot his chest might be a deterrent in itself for a bad guy.

Anyone have thoughts? Agree. Disagree.

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I have lasers on many pistols, all of them are fairly worthless as they don't stay sighted in. I always get them with a light because I'm a sucker for tech. The only one I have that holds point of aim is the Sig laser on my p290 RS which was made by Sig only for that gun.

MI2600 said:

I hadn't considered bright sunlight affecting the beam or the BG not seeing the beam on him. But, if the weapon (handgun) barrel is pointed at the target, the beam should be there too. Why would this slow down target acquisition? I doubt, in a defensive situation, at somewhat short yardage, that a lot of shooters would take the time to actually aim. I feel that is when a laser would be a plus.

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Since you already have the laser, the best thing to do is to measure this for yourself. If you don't know whether the laser speeds or slows the process to get a bullet on target, measure it. It's easy to do and you can use a shot timer app on your phone if you don't have a shot timer. You can even do it with dry fire, but it's harder to confirm whether you're actually making hits with dry fire. To get an accurate sense of how the laser is affecting your times, you would want everything else to be consistent. If your times to just draw and present the gun aren't consistent, you will have a hard time measuring the effect of the laser.

The reason lasers can slow people is because they waste time searching for the dot. At close range, they could point-shoot and hit, but their mind is hesitating because they haven't seen the dot yet. At longer range, they get a flash-sight picture and squeeze, but now they're searching for a tiny dot that's 15 yards away. But again, you can measure it for yourself since everyone is a little different.

Karl Rehn studied iron sights vs. red dots vs. lasers by measuring 118 people whom he also categorized by age (relevant to presbyopia) and skill level. Massad Ayoob wrote an article for Gun Digest describing Rehn's results: https://gundigest.com/reviews/optics-reviews/carry-optics-red-dot-green-dot-iron

Rehn claims the study is unbiased because he does not sell red dots, lasers or any other kind of sight. Maybe it's not surprising then that the study didn't identify a type of sight that had a great advantage under all conditions.

His conclusion is the same advice I'm giving you: "Baseline your performance with similar drills yourself. Use drills that are hard for you to max at 100% to better measure relative improvement. You have to answer the question, ‘Do I actually shoot this better?,’ based on rational analysis and logic. If it works better for you, use it; if it doesn’t, don’t."

When the LASER first became popular with handguns I actually learned something. I was amazed I had previously shot as well as I did considering how that little red dot danced all around the target. The more I tried to focus on the damn dot the more it was all over the target. Well over twenty years have passed and to this day I don't have a gun with a LASER on it. I guess me and a LASER just never were meant to be.

Ron

Why would a laser be more of a deterrent than a gun pointed at someone?
If you can put a dot on someone, you should be in a situation where you're allowed to and expecting to fire. Just use the laser to make sure you do that better if aiming the pistol doesn't change the situation PDQ.

If one was really really good l suppose you might be able to blind an agressor while aiming at the head. I am not nearly that good of a shot to attempt a head shot though so for me a moot point. YMMV

IMHO : If one has deemed it necessary to pull the gun out it is probably time to send bullets towards the red dot.

If one is waiting for the red dot to deter the attack you might wind up injured or dead.

Assuming the guy getting painted with a laser is a "good target", it should be too late.

Years ago, I was at a gun show looking down at a table full of handguns when all of a sudden a red dot appears on my chest. I reacted by immediately dropping to one knee and ducking my head. I admit, it did startle and concern me for a second and I probably did overreact due to the environment that I was in.
A second later I heard the sales clerk say “Give me that!” as he snatched a blue demo gun with a Crimson Trace laser grip attached.
I stood up and laughed and my buddies laughed. The salesman did not laugh and berated the kid that lased me. It turns out, in CA, if you point s laser at someone and it scares them you could be charged with a misdemeanor.

I have often wondered if a green laser would have elicited the same reaction?
I have also wondered if I would have reacted the same had I not had the “Hollywood Influence”?
Would I react the same today regardless of color? Probably not. I am 20 years older and dropping to one knee is painful. But I might step aside. Who knows?

I do believe that just pointing a laser without an immediate firing of your gun might be the split second warning a dirtbag needs to get the upper hand, but I have no real world experience to base that on. It’s just a hunch.

Also, something no one ever mentions, a laser mounted on a gun emits a light, be it red or green, and is very visible to those standing in front of the gun with the activated laser. Especially at night. The appearance of the illuminated source of the “laser beam” would be more of a concern to me than the bad guy seeing a dot on his chest. It might be the bad guy’s indication that I have a laser turned on and that he should defend himself. Again, just a hunch. I have no real world experience.
...and, to be honest, I am perfectly happy not having that experience.

Shoot a match in a daylight situation with a red dot laser and you will see that it isn't that useful. The dot is less visible than the sights and you spend time looking for it. Karl Rehn has no vested interest besides the scientific investigation of gun handling. He is quite competent to conduct such.

I have both a laser and night sights on my carry gun. I have no idea if either will have any practical use or value, but I have yet to identify any significant downside to having them other than cost. When I bought the laser I never intended it to be an intimidation device because I don’t think people usually look down at their chest during a confrontation. I just thought it might be useful to help verify aim in a stressful situation. I don’t ever rely on it as the primary aiming device when I’m practicing, but if I’m ever somewhere that I can practice low light shooting I might give it a try. Unfortunately the range where I shoot closes at sundown.