Flop handgun rounds

Bazoo said:
9mm is a flop if the measure is effectiveness rather than quantity sold.
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9mm kills many people. My cousin has been an EMT in Houston for decades and has seen more than his share of anecdotal evidence of it's effectiveness. It appears to be a common round for suicides, or maybe 9mm pistols are just more common.
 
Large rimfire cartridges flopped mightily, including the .32, .38, and .41.

None had much power to begin with, and were soon superseded by more powerful centerfire versions.
 
Admittedly, THR is the only internet message board I frequent, but I'm not seeing a lot of love here for the 357 SIG. I don't even see it mentioned very often anymore in the gun magazines I thumb through at the grocery store while my wife is shopping and trying to figure out how to save 14 cents on a gallon of orange juice. :p
 
Haven't seen much about .357 SIG lately. Fun concept, not sure it fits the CCW market it was aimed at well now.

It's rarely the cartridge, it's the market and the technology during and after. .38 S&W and .32 H&R have fallen away, but look at the attempts to bring back similar cartridges--just backed by modern metallurgy and bullet design.
.41 AE was probably timing and availability. If it was marketed when .40 S&W was in the pipeline and SIG or Glock had made an auto for it, I could see that they would have given up on .40 and .41AE would have surged.
.45 GAP was a blip thanks to the timing on bullet design. At the time it came around, so did actual good loads in 9mm and .40. Why go for a bigger grip--which GAP was designed to mitigate--and 8 or 10 rounds, now that you could get 15 and17 that would probably actually expand, penetrate deeper, maybe recoil less, and come in a thousand different choices of delivery device?

.40's going the same way. If you bought a .40 in 2002 because it was concealable and effective, good modern 9mm is more effective now than any .40 then and affords you a few more rounds in a lighter, smaller gun. If you want to step up from 9mm, you can get that from modern .45s or the gentler modern rounds in a 10mm, and have the option to move up to something truly devastating.

Many, many things become obsolete because technology passes them by in favor of improving something already more common. Timing and availability just do that to cartridges more often than many other things.
 
The .40 Super, .400 Corbon, 9x25 Dillon, etc. could be considered flops, although I suppose maybe none were intended to be the "next 9mm" in terms of marketing goals. The .41 Magnum had a certain level of success but never made the big time.
 
Was going to say the .41 AE but it has already been mentioned.
I was unaware of it until reading a Combat Handguns magazine from 1989.
They also mentioned a .40 Guns & Ammo? This was before the .40 S&W was even a thing.
 
sparkyfender said:
Was going to say the .41 AE but it has already been mentioned.
I was unaware of it until reading a Combat Handguns magazine from 1989.
They also mentioned a .40 Guns & Ammo? This was before the .40 S&W was even a thing.
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The .40 GA Became the 10mm Auto when Norma factory standardized it in 1983.
Circa 1979-1980, a couple of gun writers were toying with a .30Remington rifle cartridge case cut to fit in a M1911. Called it the .40G&A.
I’ve still got the original issue of G&A; some where...
Dornas&Dixon got involved and developed the Bren10. Norma produced the ammo.

It’s now more popular than ever. (10mm).
I have a lifetime supply of brass, lead, bullet molds for the .40! I’m not beholden to the ammunition manufacturers...
Also just this morning ordered Nosler bullets and 200 Starline 10mm cases from Grafs.com.
I’m actually quite fond of the .40! Carried one OTJ for a couple of decades.. NO COMPLAINTS!

The problem with 9mm vs .40 is that the 9mm is finally loaded to potential;the .40 is loaded down (as most 10mm) to perform as a 9mm, to FBI specifications. 45acp too...
 
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Deus Machina said:
Haven't seen much about .357 SIG lately. Fun concept, not sure it fits the CCW market it was aimed at well now.

It's rarely the cartridge, it's the market and the technology during and after. .38 S&W and .32 H&R have fallen away, but look at the attempts to bring back similar cartridges--just backed by modern metallurgy and bullet design.
.41 AE was probably timing and availability. If it was marketed when .40 S&W was in the pipeline and SIG or Glock had made an auto for it, I could see that they would have given up on .40 and .41AE would have surged.
.45 GAP was a blip thanks to the timing on bullet design. At the time it came around, so did actual good loads in 9mm and .40. Why go for a bigger grip--which GAP was designed to mitigate--and 8 or 10 rounds, now that you could get 15 and17 that would probably actually expand, penetrate deeper, maybe recoil less, and come in a thousand different choices of delivery device?

.40's going the same way. If you bought a .40 in 2002 because it was concealable and effective, good modern 9mm is more effective now than any .40 then and affords you a few more rounds in a lighter, smaller gun. If you want to step up from 9mm, you can get that from modern .45s or the gentler modern rounds in a 10mm, and have the option to move up to something truly devastating.

Many, many things become obsolete because technology passes them by in favor of improving something already more common. Timing and availability just do that to cartridges more often than many other things.
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On the 45 GAP also consider the timing of the sunsetting of the assault weapons ban shortly after it was debuted.

You could make some argument at the time in favor of the 45 GAP that if you can only have 10 rounds max they might as well be bigger and fit into a small grip. After the capacity limit went away for most states there's not much reason for it.
 
mcb said:
tarosean said:
There are literally millions of guns chambered in it. I dont think I would call that a flop
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40S&W ... cartridge is flopping.
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Not for me as I enjoy my 40S&W Glocks using 40-9mm conversion barrels and 22LR slide kit. :p

If 40S&W becoming a "flop cartridge" gains more traction and lowers price of Glocks, more the reason to buy them cheap and use 40-9mm conversion barrels to have "best of both worlds" pistols. ;)

BreechFace said:
I actually like 40S&W it has a lot of good characteristics on paper and the streets. The simple reason why I moved away from it is that 9mm maintains my cheap to shoot and ease to carry platforms and loadings that have proven themselves.

I like 10mm and it seemed redundant to carry 9mm, 40 S&W and 10mm ammo so the 40 got kicked for the sake of streamlining stockpiles.
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Well ... John Wick movies formalized 9mm Major as an effective cartridge to the mainstream and 40-9mm conversion barrels with thicker chamber/barrel walls are better suited for firing higher pressure 9mm Major rounds.

Perhaps 40S&W Glocks will enjoy resurgence as platform for 9mm Major as illustrated by this American Handgunner article - https://americanhandgunner.com/discover/whats-9-major/

Here, Taran Butler showing John Wick director the difference in power of 9mm vs 9mm Major. :thumbup:

 
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No one has mentioned the 460 Rowland...even more of that 10mm goodness, mild to wild, never has taken off, been around for more than a decade at least.... Has a very small cult following of which I am a part. Currently have 3 of them. The FNX tactical I had barreled for it is pretty dadgum awesome.
 
If you think about it, most new cartridges that come along really do not do anything better than what it already out there. Oh, there may be a little better of this or a little better of that, but in reality splitting hairs.

Add in the fact it is difficult to ramp up production so that someone that wants the cartridge can get it. Levels of resistance come from all poarts of the gun supply chain, firearms manufacturers, ammunition manufacturers, distributers, retail sales outlet, reloading supply manufacturers and the list go on.

Frequently, if a high volume user, such as law enforcement, military, etc, gets behind a new round, it dioes take off, .40 S&W is an example. But 40 S&W did not really solve law enforcement's needs in many cases.

So, inventors will try to build a better mouse trap, consumers will decide most of the new fangled traps are not worth the effort.

I'm a big fan of 38/45 Clerke. It has a small following and never really got any traction. Fortunately, I have case forming and reloading dies so I can enjoy my two 38/45 Clerke 1911's.
 
.25NAA and .32NAA both qualify. Both great ideas that nobody needed or apparently wanted. It’s a shame too. The world needs a centerfire (and sure, more expensive) replacement for .22lr.

Edited to add: .30SC will have its day. All somebody has to do is engineer a quad stacked .30SC magazine that works in a 2011 .45ACP frame. Not a compact carry package, sure, but 30+ rounds in a flush fitting magazine would be pretty dope.
 
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RevolvingGarbage said:
Edited to add: .30SC will have its day. All somebody has to do is engineer a quad stacked .30SC magazine that works in a 2011 .45ACP frame. Not a compact carry package, sure, but 30+ rounds in a flush fitting magazine would be pretty dope.
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You do realize that a 30 Super Carry is 0.342” in diameter right?

Don’t think a quad stack in a magazine designed for a grip frame is in the realm of possibility. Unless you are selling to the Shaquille O’Neil’s of the world.
 
LiveLife said:
Well ... John Wick movies formalized 9mm Major as an effective cartridge to the mainstream and 40-9mm conversion barrels with thicker chamber/barrel walls are better suited for firing higher pressure 9mm Major rounds.
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The barrel thickness of, for example, S&W M&P, 9mm, 9mm/40 conversion and 40 S&W are all the same. Thus the 40-9 conversion barrel and chamber walls are no thicker than regular 9mm barrels.
 
fxvr5 said:
The barrel thickness of, for example, S&W M&P, 9mm, 9mm/40 conversion and 40 S&W are all the same. Thus the 40-9 conversion barrel and chamber walls are no thicker than regular 9mm barrels.
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How is that? So there's room around the barrel to slide hood area when using a 9mm conversion barrel. I'll have to check as I don't have one myself, but I though these conversions were keeping the same OD.

If one goes from 40 to 9mm if the barrel maintains the same outside diameter the barrel's walls have to be thicker due to bore/caliber size. The same goes for the chamber.
 
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