Can We Talk About Sabots?

I inherited three rounds of 30-06 Accelerator that my dad bought in the 1970s, IIRC. I'll probably never shoot them, though I'd bet my youngest will pop them off when I pass.
30 caliber sabots are available at EAB Co

I'd be mildly curious to see how it goes but from what I've read the twist rates aren't optimal and the sabots don't have great concentricity.

I tried the Remington Accelerator .30-06 in its day. Accuracy was erratic, it would put a few shots close, then flyers. The only use I could think of for them was called varmints.

I too tried the 30-06 accelerators back in the early 80's for 'yotes. Accuracy was "meh" and they were twice the cost of regular ought-six ammo. The plastic "sabot" tended to plug up the rifling too iffin I remember correctly if you didn;t wire brush the barrel heavily before shooting conventional ammo. I think as the advent of dedicated "Varmint" rifles, instead of the ol' "One gun for all" philosophy came about, the need for them declined, and along with their poor performance they disappeared into the sunset. I too still have some in my ammo storage, but think looking at them is more fun than shooting them.

That said, I have shot Sabots in slug guns and had great luck with them. Have friends with BP guns that swear by them.

I tried the .30-30 Accelerators in a 10” Contender barrel and was disappointed. Tried them in a 22” Savage-Stevens bolt action and was impressed - by the first two shots. I found sabots on the shelf at a hunting/fishing place in Altoona once and bought them figuring I might outdo Remington by handloading. I was wrong.
I have had moderate success with BPR sabots in .50cal and they are really good for shotguns. Nogo in smokeless rifles though.

DMW1116 said:

Can We Talk About Sabots?

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30 years ago, my local commercial bullet caster who got robbed a few times at the shop would use .38Spl plastic shotshell caps cut short as sabots to load 110 gr .30 Carbine FMJ bullets for .357 Mag loads like these - https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bul...bine-110-gr-full-metal-jacket-round-nose-new/

He said using lighter 110 gr .30 Caliber "rifle" bullet sabot significantly increased muzzle velocity out of .357 barrel he kept under counter holster for greater penetration. He had 3 cylinders with sabot rounds followed by 3 cylinders of JHP.

When I mumbled something about 10mm, he pulled out .45 Super 1911 from his waist holster and told me he made cases from cut down reamed .308 brass.

Now, if you sabot 9mm bullet into 10mm case ... 95/100/115 gr bullet may travel way past 9mm Major velocities around 2000 fps. Wikipedia lists 77 gr 10mm bullet with 2420 fps muzzle velocity and 1001 ft lb of energy (Lone Wolf makes 6"/9" 10mm barrels for Glocks which would produce even higher muzzle velocities ) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

GeoDudeFlorida said:

I tried the .30-30 Accelerators in a 10” Contender barrel and was disappointed. Tried them in a 22” Savage-Stevens bolt action and was impressed - by the first two shots. I found sabots on the shelf at a hunting/fishing place in Altoona once and bought them figuring I might outdo Remington by handloading. I was wrong.
I have had moderate success with BPR sabots in .50cal and they are really good for shotguns. Nogo in smokeless rifles though.

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Funny this came up. Have a dozen E A Brown sabot loads ready for the mini thirty and the American rifle. But it snowed, the west wind is blowing in the barn and foot ball food is cooking

DMW1116 said:

LiveLife said:

.38Spl plastic shotshell caps cut short as sabots to load 110 gr .30 Carbine FMJ bullets for .357 Mag loads

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like the idea of flexibility, such as the 110 grain 30 caliber bullets in a 357 ... So the plastic sabots don’t fit as snugly as the actual bullet and leave some plastic in the rifling?

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Retired bullet caster said all the plastic essentially get blown out the barrel.

I tried shooting Accelerators in clean barrels, lightly fouled barrels, and well fouled barrels. Nothing seemed to help.

Hmm, what is the MOA accuracy of an anti-tank saboted shot? Seems like we could do better in small arms.

Jim Watson said:

Hmm, what is the MOA accuracy of an anti-tank saboted shot? Seems like we could do better in small arms.

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Minute of Tank?
FWIW, modern tank guns are smooth bore, the shot has fins to stabilize it.
World War II stuff was rifled, the famous Sherman Firefly's 17-pounder used spin stabilized discarding sabot. I've read they improved accuracy, though I don't recall reading an MOA value. The better anti tank guns of the period were expected to make hits out to 2,000 meters, well, knock-out hits. Back of the envelope calculations give me 4.7 MOA for the height of a Sherman at 2,000 meters. So I'll guess 2-3 MOA; a complete guesstimate.

Edit: I don't know what the expected percentage of hits was, so my guesstimate may be quite low.

Only thing they seem very acceptable in is muzzle loaders. .30 cal rifles always seemed better to me using .30 cal varmint bullets, much more accurate.

Maddi Griffin sold .30 cal sabots for 50 BMG that sounds like fun but I never wasted the money in them. IIRC they had load data pushing a 180gn bullet over 5,000fps! If you could make contact with one, I bet it would leave a mess…

Our .gov uses 355gn sabot rounds going 4,000fps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saboted_light_armor_penetrator

9mmepiphany said:

I might be mistaken, but aren't most tanks using smoothbore barrels to shoot sabot rounds

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Yes, with fins, like arrows. see post 11

9mmepiphany said:

I think the lack/minimized rifling allows for a more stable flight of the saboted round, which in turn allows for less disruption as the sabot fingers/leaves separate

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From what I've read regarding World War Ii sabots, which were fired from rifled barrels, they spent time to test and make ones which didn't disrupt the shot as the sabot separated. Given rough parity*, the tank which shot and hit first survived, so sacrificing accuracy would seem to be bad.
*Rough parity didn't exist in some instances, such as when the German Panzer IIIs with 37mm guns first ran into KV or T-34 tanks or French Char B1bis for that matter; they scored hits without penetration. Flak 88s and other towed guns had to be brought to bear.

DMW1116 said:

I’m looking into sabots as a part of my quest to try some paper patched bullets. Current sabots are typically plastic but paper is older and seems to work the same way.

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No, the paper patch doesn’t separate from the bullet after it leaves the barrel, it’s attached and part of the bullet on impact. A sabot (Dutch word meaning “shoe”) falls off and remains behind as (or shortly after) the bullet leaves the muzzle. They operate in very different ways.

A properly applied paper patch is more nearly akin to a half jacket.

Sabots are popular with muzzle loaders. Personally I don't care for them They do make the bullet faster for a flatter trajectory. But when using them to hunt deer I really don't need a muzzle loading varmint gun. Big and heavy soft lead works best for me using muzzle loaders.

DMW1116 said:

Interesting. I thought the paper separated eventually. Either right in front of the muzzle or 10-20 feet after.

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I don’t believe I’ve ever had one separate. It’s applied wet and rolled onto the unlubed bullet two full turns. The dried patch is stiff and really on the bullet. The rifling impresses the paper into the bullet. Unlike a sabot where the bullet is untouched by the rifling, the patch paper doesn’t really give and marks the bullet. Rifling is typically 4-6 thousandths deep, which is about the thickness of 10# paper so it depends on the barrel and how it’s cut.

I think the Browning guys did a UToob about it. I learnt about it from some of the Enfield guys and tried it with .309” cast bullets in a .314” Metford rifled Lee Enfield. And then in some older rifles - 45 Boxer-Henry, 577 Snider, 30 Cadet, etc.

I don't know about paper sabots or why anyone would want to try them but the plastic sabots fall off a couple of feet from the muzzle.

Somewhere I have a box of 30-06 Accelerators I got from an estate.

DMW1116 said:

Do the plastic ones separate or just get left behind?

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The fingers open up from centrifugal force (4080fps from a 1:10 barrel = 293,760 RPM) and get left behind, the Remington accelerators sabot would leave a dent in plywood. Certainly NOT for suppressor use.

The problem with aftermarket sabots is the design.

The military and factories spend a lot of money on R&D.

Here's a pic of some real sabots for 50 BMG. It's hard to see but the sub caliber projectile screws into the sabot.