Can someone help

So, I can order a pistol from a dealer in another state and have it sent to my FFL at home,
but I can't go to another state and buy a handgun, never take "possession" and have the
dealer send it to my FFL in my state?

I'm confused.

And if you can't, it's one more silly gun law/technicality.

That said, the law is important to know, and hopefully the FFL would know, should know anyway.
 
Walkalong said:
but I can't go to another state and buy a handgun, never take "possession" and have the
dealer send it to my FFL in my state?

I'm confused.
Click to expand...

And well you should be ( lawyers make their living that way 🙃 )

That said:
> In general, you can buy a handgun out of state, based on federal law. But, to be legal, you cannot take possession of it there.
> Instead, the seller must deliver it to a federally licensed gun dealer (FFL) in your home state.



... alternate interpretation from the Local Leagle Beagles here invited . . . . :cool:
 
Last edited:
I think it's pretty clear that the verbiage in 922(b)(3), about not selling to a resident of another state, is a dead letter provided that the delivery is through an FFL in the buyer's home state. This is how most Gun Broker sales work, for example. You find a gun on Gun Broker, buy it, and have it sent to your local FFL dealer. The local FFL dealer then transfers it to you.

What are unclear are sales by FFL's at gun shows, in the following situations:

1. A buyer attends a gun show in his home state. He finds a gun that he wants to buy, from an FFL dealer attending the show from another state. Must the dealer return to his state with the gun and ship it to the buyer's FFL later, or can he find a local FFL at the show to run it through his books, so that delivery can be immediate?

2. The converse: a buyer attends a gun show in a neighboring state. He finds a gun that he wants to buy, but it turns out that the dealer is actually licensed in his own home state. Can the gun be transferred as if the whole transaction had taken place in the buyer's and seller's home state?

I believe that the answer, technically, to both questions is "no." Yet, in practice, these things happen all the time. I've seen these many times myself, and nobody seems to get in trouble for them.
 
1. A buyer attends a gun show in his home state. He finds a gun that he wants to buy,
from an FFL dealer attending the show from another state.
Click to expand...
The out-of-state vendor has the buyer fill out a 4473, then goes to an in-state FFL
(usually several there at the gun show to run the background check/transfer of handgun.

2. The converse: a buyer attends a gun show in a neighboring state. He finds a gun that
he wants to buy, but it turns out that the dealer is actually licensed in his own home state.
Click to expand...
Actual transfer of the handgun must take place in the buyer's state.


Again . . . Legal Beagles edits/add corrections
 
Walkalong said:
So, I can order a pistol from a dealer in another state and have it sent to my FFL at home,
but I can't go to another state and buy a handgun, never take "possession" and have the
dealer send it to my FFL in my state?

I'm confused.

And if you can't, it's one more silly gun law/technicality.

That said, the law is important to know, and hopefully the FFL would know, should know anyway.
Click to expand...
I've walked into FFLs in states that I don't live in, looked at handguns and long guns, handed the FFL money, and gave them my state's FFL info that I do business with to have 'em shipped there. Guns arrived at my in-state FFL and I completed my 4473 in my state of residence and took possession of 'em.

Hell, my old man walked into John Jovino's in NYC after the 1968 GCA was passed and he selected a S&W Model 36 from their inventory and had it shipped to a FFL in FL.
 
MEHavey said:
The out-of-state vendor has the buyer fill out a 4473, then goes to an in-state FFL
(usually several there at the gun show to run the background check/transfer of handgun.
Click to expand...
This is a three-way transaction: out-of-state dealer --> in-state dealer --> final (in-state) customer. The final customer gives the 4473 to the in-state dealer. The transfer between the two dealers simply involves showing each other their licenses (and entering the transaction into their "bound books").

I've seen it done this way, but I question the legality. According to the ATF, the out-of-state dealer is not supposed to be making sales at the show, but only exhibiting firearms and taking orders (presumably for delivery later by shipment to an in-state FFL). The problem is that the show is not the out-of-state dealer's licensed premises. There's a limited exception to this rule for in-state dealers.

This is one of those things that's hard to enforce unless an ATF agent actually witnesses such a deal going down.
 
I Ilive in Missouri, in a town near the Kansas and Oklahoma borders. I've seen guys in a local gun shop make deals with the store. As soon as they show the out of state license, the guys let them know it will need to be shipped to their home state. The shop knows some of the near by shops in both states and offers to ship them there, or to the buyers shop of choice. Simple and legal.
When I read the OP's story it sounded like a set up to me. I have seen 2 gun shops closed down by LEO efforts to get them to do something illegal.
 
KY DAN said:
A young man(age 21) told me a tell of woe as he tried to buy and handgun in Indiana while being a resident of Kentucky and told me federal law says they had to sell him that pistol.

I informed he he was wrong and fed law in no way shape or form suggests or implied that.

I want to print the actual law off and give it to him to read and understand so he's not passed and spewing non sense.

Can you all point me to the right place
Click to expand...

Any chance you know the name of the shop or the town where he tried to buy it?
 
Come on nice person. You can't make sense with an unsensible person . And unsensible isn't a word. So just go on.
 
KY DAN said:
A young man(age 21) told me a tell of woe as he tried to buy and handgun in Indiana while being a resident of Kentucky and told me federal law says they had to sell him that pistol.

I informed he he was wrong and fed law in no way shape or form suggests or implied that.

I want to print the actual law off and give it to him to read and understand so he's not passed and spewing non sense.

Can you all point me to the right place
Click to expand...
Yes, he can "buy" it by paying for it, but it has to be shipped to an FFL in his home state for the actual background check. Other Firearms (mossberg Shockwave and Remington Tac14 type guns) and Handguns are done this way. Rifles or "normal" shotguns are basically fair game for the most part unless your home state bans certain features or something. There is something about needing to be a "hunting" weapon which we take to mean if you can reasonably hunt a deer-ish size game with it would be fine. So an ar15 could technically be considered a hunting rifle like a Remington 700 is.
 
KY DAN said:
A young man(age 21) told me...
Click to expand...

Enough said, not much chance of him listening to any bit of reason you try to impart on him! Just agree and try to console him about how horrible that gun dealer is! He should probably file a laws suit against them!
 
Mark Twain said that when he was 14, he thought his father was really dumb. When he turned 21, he couldn't believe how much his father had learned in just seven years.

Some people don't get it at 21, or 28, or 35 . . .
 
45/30-06OKIE said:
There is something about needing to be a "hunting" weapon which we take to mean if you can reasonably hunt a deer-ish size game with it would be fine. So an ar15 could technically be considered a hunting rifle like a Remington 700 is.
Click to expand...
"Hunting" is not a factor in interstate sales of long guns (that is, buying a rifle or shotgun face-to-face from an FFL dealer in a state other than your own). The gun simply must be legal in both states. In buying an AR-15, you might get hung up on AWB's that are being enacted in various states. But this has nothing to do with hunting.
 
AlexanderA said:
I think it's pretty clear that the verbiage in 922(b)(3), about not selling to a resident of another state, is a dead letter provided that the delivery is through an FFL in the buyer's home state. This is how most Gun Broker sales work, for example. You find a gun on Gun Broker, buy it, and have it sent to your local FFL dealer. The local FFL dealer then transfers it to you.

What are unclear are sales by FFL's at gun shows, in the following situations:

1. A buyer attends a gun show in his home state. He finds a gun that he wants to buy, from an FFL dealer attending the show from another state. Must the dealer return to his state with the gun and ship it to the buyer's FFL later, or can he find a local FFL at the show to run it through his books, so that delivery can be immediate?

2. The converse: a buyer attends a gun show in a neighboring state. He finds a gun that he wants to buy, but it turns out that the dealer is actually licensed in his own home state. Can the gun be transferred as if the whole transaction had taken place in the buyer's and seller's home state?

I believe that the answer, technically, to both questions is "no." Yet, in practice, these things happen all the time. I've seen these many times myself, and nobody seems to get in trouble for them.
Click to expand...

I work at a shop that's in a town that is on a river that two states border. The owner has an FFL for each state, as he lives in the state across the river from the shop. If a resident from the other state comes in and wants to buy a handgun, and has that state's paperwork that says he can, he sells them the gun, and arranges to meet the buyer at the address for his FFL in the buyer's state. The owner physically brings the gun to the address for his FFL in that state, and the gun is transferred.

Sounds to me like the young man has been listening to the several 'sovereign' wanna be lawyers on You Tube. You know the ones, the same ones that post instructions on how to handle being pulled over that they think will result in them getting off scot free, but usually end in obstruction and resisting arrest charges....and we all know that in the end the dealer or his agent (salesperson) has the right to refuse any sale or service.
 
entropy said:
I work at a shop that's in a town that is on a river that two states border. The owner has an FFL for each state, as he lives in the state across the river from the shop. If a resident from the other state comes in and wants to buy a handgun, and has that state's paperwork that says he can, he sells them the gun, and arranges to meet the buyer at the address for his FFL in the buyer's state. The owner physically brings the gun to the address for his FFL in that state, and the gun is transferred.
Click to expand...
Perfectly kosher. What wouldn't be correct is if the dealer short-circuited the process and physically delivered the gun at the shop. The general rule is that the FFL applies to transactions at the licensed premises.

The one exception to this rule is transactions at gun shows. This is where things get murky. The actual practice doesn't always follow the ATF guidance.
 
entropy said:
I work at a shop that's in a town that is on a river that two states border. The owner has an FFL for each state, as he lives in the state across the river from the shop. If a resident from the other state comes in and wants to buy a handgun, and has that state's paperwork that says he can, he sells them the gun, and arranges to meet the buyer at the address for his FFL in the buyer's state. The owner physically brings the gun to the address for his FFL in that state, and the gun is transferred.

Sounds to me like the young man has been listening to the several 'sovereign' wanna be lawyers on You Tube. You know the ones, the same ones that post instructions on how to handle being pulled over that they think will result in them getting off scot free, but usually end in obstruction and resisting arrest charges....and we all know that in the end the dealer or his agent (salesperson) has the right to refuse any sale or service.
Click to expand...
Yes, the dealer/FFL is the "lion at the gate" who decides what gets sold to whoever.
He/she will not jeopardize their license by doing anything he/she deems questionable.
jmo,
.
 
45/30-06OKIE said:
Yes, he can "buy" it by paying for it, but it has to be shipped to an FFL in his home state for the actual background check. Other Firearms (mossberg Shockwave and Remington Tac14 type guns) and Handguns are done this way. Rifles or "normal" shotguns are basically fair game for the most part unless your home state bans certain features or something. There is something about needing to be a "hunting" weapon which we take to mean if you can reasonably hunt a deer-ish size game with it would be fine. So an ar15 could technically be considered a hunting rifle like a Remington 700 is.
Click to expand...
Yup until 2011, FL had a law that made it illegal to purchase long guns from any state that didn't share a border with FL. Meaning, if you traveled to SC, as a Floridian, you couldn't legally purchase the long gun and take possession of it in SC. It had to be shipped to a FFL in FL. Even though the federal law said you could. Luckily, that FL law was repealed in 2011.
 
AlexanderA said:
"Hunting" is not a factor in interstate sales of long guns (that is, buying a rifle or shotgun face-to-face from an FFL dealer in a state other than your own). The gun simply must be legal in both states. In buying an AR-15, you might get hung up on AWB's that are being enacted in various states. But this has nothing to do with hunting.
Click to expand...
Correct.

In FL, one cannot legally purchase a long gun if they're under the age of 21. That means any FFL outside of FL can be held legally liable for selling a Floridian under the age of 21 a long gun.
 
entropy said:
I work at a shop that's in a town that is on a river that two states border. The owner has an FFL for each state, as he lives in the state across the river from the shop. If a resident from the other state comes in and wants to buy a handgun, and has that state's paperwork that says he can, he sells them the gun, and arranges to meet the buyer at the address for his FFL in the buyer's state. The owner physically brings the gun to the address for his FFL in that state, and the gun is transferred.

Sounds to me like the young man has been listening to the several 'sovereign' wanna be lawyers on You Tube. You know the ones, the same ones that post instructions on how to handle being pulled over that they think will result in them getting off scot free, but usually end in obstruction and resisting arrest charges....and we all know that in the end the dealer or his agent (salesperson) has the right to refuse any sale or service.
Click to expand...
Kevin's Guns has a store in Tallahassee, FL and Thomasville, GA. Kevin's will transfer a firearm from one store to another.

As for a 21-year-old purchasing a firearm outside of their home state. It is possible if they're active-duty military, have a C&R FFL, or has multiple residences in different states and legally claim residency in those different states.
 
AlexanderA said:
"Hunting" is not a factor in interstate sales of long guns (that is, buying a rifle or shotgun face-to-face from an FFL dealer in a state other than your own). The gun simply must be legal in both states. In buying an AR-15, you might get hung up on AWB's that are being enacted in various states. But this has nothing to do with hunting.
Click to expand...
Well dad said that the ATF agent when we got out FFL had said something about 18-20 year old can only buy a long gun if it's suitable for hunting?? But 21 year olds and up is fair game. So it's not really a "law" just a guidance?
 
So, I can order a pistol from a dealer in another state and have it sent to my FFL at home,
but I can't go to another state and buy a handgun, never take "possession" and have the
dealer send it to my FFL in my state?
Click to expand...
Both of those things are legal. But if you buy a handgun in a state other than your state of residence, you may not legally take it back home. It will have to go to an FFL in your state of residence.
1. A buyer attends a gun show in his home state. He finds a gun that he wants to buy, from an FFL dealer attending the show from another state. Must the dealer return to his state with the gun and ship it to the buyer's FFL later, or can he find a local FFL at the show to run it through his books, so that delivery can be immediate?

2. The converse: a buyer attends a gun show in a neighboring state. He finds a gun that he wants to buy, but it turns out that the dealer is actually licensed in his own home state. Can the gun be transferred as if the whole transaction had taken place in the buyer's and seller's home state?
Click to expand...
This is why it's better to look at what the actual offense is, as I mentioned in another post. The actual offense is transporting the firearm back across state lines to the buyer's state of residence.

Therefore, a person can buy a firearm (that is NOT a handgun--per the exception in federal law) from an FFL in any state where it's legal for them to purchase and possess it as long as it is also legal for them to purchase and possess it in their state of residence.

If the firearm is a handgun, there is no exception for transporting the firearm back across state lines to their state of residence. Therefore it would be illegal for the buyer to transport it back across state lines legally to their state of residence so the purchase must take place in their state of residence or they must take possession in their state of residence from an FFL.
As for a 21-year-old purchasing a firearm outside of their home state. It is possible if they're active-duty military, have a C&R FFL, or has multiple residences in different states and legally claim residency in those different states.
Click to expand...
It's better not to talk about the buyer's "home state" since that's not defined in the law. The issue is the person's state of residence. As you say, a person can have more than one state of residence. And if a person is active duty military, then where they are stationed is their state of residence.
 
AlexanderA said:
The practical way that residence in a state is usually proven is through a driver's license. It's no longer possible to maintain driver's licenses in more than one state. (Florida, I believe, was the last state to allow this, and they've discontinued the practice.) So, if you're buying a gun in a secondary state in which you have a residence for part of the year, you have to prove it by other means (such as utility bills, etc.). This is a hassle and some dealers won't be bothered.
Click to expand...
You obtain a driver's license in one state and a state issued ID in the other.
 
unspellable said:
You obtain a driver's license in one state and a state issued ID in the other.
Click to expand...
This is questionable. It may vary by state.

Here's what the rule is in Virginia:

If you hold a license of any kind, issued by any state within the United States, you are not eligible for an ID card unless you surrender the license. If you currently hold both a driver's license and an ID card, you will be required to surrender your driver's license before you can replace your ID card.​
https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/licenses-ids/id-cards/replacement-id
 
AlexanderA said:
This is questionable. It may vary by state.

Here's what the rule is in Virginia:

If you hold a license of any kind, issued by any state within the United States, you are not eligible for an ID card unless you surrender the license. If you currently hold both a driver's license and an ID card, you will be required to surrender your driver's license before you can replace your ID card.​
https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/licenses-ids/id-cards/replacement-id
Click to expand...
Florida statutes prohibit a person from holding both an identification card and driver license. If you hold a driver license or identification card from Florida or any other state, it must be surrendered (if it has not been lost or stolen) before a Florida identification card can be issued.
Click to expand...

Identification Card - Hillsborough County Tax Collector

Get a Florida Identification Card. Due to the Real ID Act, the State of Florida has new documentation requirements to renew or replace a Florida ID card.
www.hillstax.org www.hillstax.org

Florida law requires the surrender of all licenses or identification cards in your possession to be issued a new driver license or identification card. Issuance of an ID card with a current valid driver license from any state will void or cancel the issuance of the driver license.
Click to expand...

escambiataxcollector.com

Can I have an ID card and a valid driver’s license at the same time?

Can I have an ID card and a valid driver’s license from the at the same time? Answers from the Tax Collector of Escambia County.
escambiataxcollector.com escambiataxcollector.com

If you need a picture ID but you do not want, or are not eligible for, a driver's license, you may obtain a Florida identification card. Federal law prohibits holding both a driver's license and an identification card.
Click to expand...


FL Statute 322.03(1(b): A person may not have more than one valid driver license at any time.
 
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