Controversial Question! Good Shooter vs. Bad Shooter

MrChicken said:

A better gun doesn't make you a better shooter but it makes your shots better.

Give a novice a top notch gun and you will see how well they can shoot. They will be better with that gun than with average gun. As the quality of the gun goes lower so will their accuracy.

Give a top shooter the worst possible gun, one that can't hit a target and they'll will shoot poorly. Everything else will be done well but the result will be poor.

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But with an entry level (not garbage) gun a top shooter will know how to adjust and hit the target.
They will also be able to ascertain if a gun is garbage and should be destroyed.

I’ll admit I have not been a top shooter in any hand gun class competition but in my hay day 20-30 years ago I could competently hit the target at some long ranges.

My primary handgun competition was IHMSA hand gun silhouette.

As.I have aged, I’m past 70 these days, my shooting is not as good as days past. I’ve had cataract surgery a number of years ago and I do not see iron sights as well. Muscles are not as capable.

There is a John Wayne moving where the John Wayne character is chasing a bad guy that had abducted his grandson. Wayne asks an old Indian friend helping with the recovery if he wants long range ( rifle) or short range (shot gun). The Indian choses the shot gun as his eye sight is not do good. That is me these days.

Atavar said:

But with an entry level (not garbage) gun a top shooter will know how to adjust and hit the target.
They will also be able to ascertain if a gun is garbage and should be destroyed.

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That's only if the gun is consistently off the same way every time. As in it shoots the inches left, they could aim three inches right.

But if that was true the gun would shoot good consistent groups.

It's when the impacts are spread like a bad group even the best shooter will shoot bad groups. IOW, without luck you can't shoot a better group than the gun allows.

Equipment doesn’t buy you wins.

As someone mentioned earlier, To rise to the top you will spend more on ammo than any handgun will cost you.

For example; Break your recent 4k vs, by ammo costs now. Even the pricey one isn’t all that much.

mcb said:

If I remember right Ben Stoeger in his meteoric rise in USPSA/IPSC took a basically stock Berretta 92 all the way to Grand Master in Production.

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92fs Elite (Brig slide model) and Back x Back x Back World Champion. There might be another Back in there I don't recall exactly when He switched to Tanfo's

Point still remains the same.

Except the gun has to be reliable when it comes to speed games and accurate when it comes to measured games.

MrChicken said:

That's only if the gun is consistently off the same way every time. As in it shoots the inches left, they could aim three inches right.

But if that was true the gun would shoot good consistent groups.

It's when the impacts are spread like a bad group even the best shooter will shoot bad groups. IOW, without luck you can't shoot a better group than the gun allows.

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A good shooter would get rid of that gun.

It applies to everything. Top talent with top equipment are the elite in their sport/hobby. Most people have to practice a lot to be elite, but some freaks of nature need less practice.

I shot with a local IPSC clue for a year or so many years ago. I was shooting a stock out of the box, Colt Government Model, 45 with the tiny little GI sights. I loaded my own ammo using a little Lee-Loader. It didn't take me long to figure out that I could swap guns (and ammo) with the top shooters in the club and they'd still shoot rings around me all day long. Those cats worked at it. Me? I just sort of plugged along, not really knowing what I was doing. But I had fun.

I'm still that way. I've got some nice guns, but I'm under no illusion that I'm a "good" or even "fair" shot. I might shoot 100 rounds a week. I'm not dedicated enough to do the work and get the coaching necessary to get to be a really good shot (I'm also old at the hills and starting to fall apart physically but that's a different excuse). I'm pretty sure I could't see the difference between me shooting a Hi-Point vs a...well, pick a custom chrome plated whiz-blaster...The targets would look pretty much the same.

But I still enjoy it.

Derek Zeanah said:

It's the same with shooting. Better gear makes it easier, but at the end of the day it's up the the shooter and skills he's honed via deliberate practice over thousands of rounds

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It's the same with just about everything. While we're only as good as our tools, everyone has a ceiling where tools and practice and physical abilities no longer matter. Some people have a higher ceiling and put in the requisite effort and financial investment to reach it. Some people have a low ceiling but do the same thing, but most people never know their true capability because they're limited by finances, time, other interests, etc...
If a person wants to be the best they can possibly be at anything, it comes at a cost. Lazy people stop at "good enough" and blame their shortcomings on the limitations of their gear.

Mark_Mark said:

Alright… Like I was telling everyone, I finally leaned to shoot good in the past 2 years with a pistol. Before, I thought if I bought the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. It would make me a top tier shooter. NOPE!

Question : Do you good shooters buy pistol that are good enough for you or buy the BEST of the BEST!

question especially goes to top tier Competition shooters. But if you can pop a can at 50 yards, let me know!!

THANKS!

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Question doesn't apply to me

Mark_Mark said:

Alright… Like I was telling everyone, I finally leaned to shoot good in the past 2 years with a pistol. Before, I thought if I bought the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. It would make me a top tier shooter. NOPE!

Question : Do you good shooters buy pistol that are good enough for you or buy the BEST of the BEST!

question especially goes to top tier Competition shooters. But if you can pop a can at 50 yards, let me know!!

THANKS!

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All my handguns are stock without optics other than the fixed iron sights they came with. I don't consider myself a top shot by a long shot and I'm better with some guns than with others, but I can consistently hit within the 7-ring on a B27 target at 50 yards with anything I own that has a 5 or 6" barrel, and within the 8 ring at 25 yards. I could probably tear a 5 gallon gas can up at 50 yards if I'm not in a big hurry between shots.

InTheSwamp said:

According to Jerry Miculek, you must be the first to arrive at the range and the last to leave. That'll make the difference.

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Would it make you a bad shot if you were the only person to leave when finished?

Atavar said:

The competition I would like to shoot would be everyone shooting a box stock 100% unmodified firearm of the same model using the same lot of ammo.
Make it actually shooter vs shooter instead of shooter vs dollars.

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Silhouette shooting used to be that kind of game.

It was all just random razzing back and forth, but it was interesting, nobody was willing to try.

An excellent shooter with a good enough gun can whup azz on a good enough shooter equipped with the best of the best firearm(s)!

Couple cases in point ...

-Last SAT I won the offhand military milsurp shoot 100Y offhand using an antique Italian Vetterli-Vitali model 1870/87, using smokeless reloads. Once shot a witnessed 10-shot 4" group with it, but it was low left of the 10/X ring, 9s & 10s.

-Built an indoor bulleye 22LR pistol for my twin bro, out of a lowly Ruger Mk II when I had my gunsmithing FFL ... he was #2 in his State for years using it. Made him a slip-aisde (front sight ramp) compensator/brake, with O-Ring to the mizzle, of my own design and lo & behold years later Volquartsen had a similar model on the market, lol.

trackskippy said:

It was all just random razzing back and forth, but it was interesting, nobody was willing to try.

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Maybe they were opposed to slummin' after all the years of work and $ they put into their gear. Had a guy once tell me he didn't want to shoot anything he didn't carry because he didn't wanna lose his feel for his gun. ???

An informal match a couple months ago wrapped up early due to low turnout, so we had some grudge matches afterwards. $10 a head, everyone entered the pistol they normally used. Blind draw to see who's pistol you shot, redraw if you pulled your own. No sighters, winner take all. They guy that wins quite often with a CZ of some sort won that one with a police officer's M&P 9mm duty gun. The police officer that carries the M&P drew a slick Springfield Operator 1911 .45 and couldn't hit anything.

Ive always felt you should be able to pick up anything and be able to shoot it reasonably well. You dont have to be an expert with everything, but you should at least be able to shoot anything reasonably well.

Seems like a lot of people get too wrapped up in the minutia of things and lose sight of the big picture.

If you want to be the expert in a specific thing, that's fine, go for it. I think having a broad and well-versed base is more important than specializing though.

It's a common idea that I see mirrored in the guitar player forums I visit-guy buys an expensive artist model guitar, same boutique amplifier as the artist uses along with the strings & assorted devices the artist endorses & then complains that he doesn't sound like the artist-go figure.
Never hurts to get the very best you can afford but completion grade gun doesn't make you a competitor any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

trackskippy said:

Ive always felt you should be able to pick up anything and be able to shoot it reasonably well. You dont have to be an expert with everything, but you should at least be able to shoot anything reasonably well.

Seems like a lot of people get too wrapped up in the minutia of things and lose sight of the big picture.

If you want to be the expert in a specific thing, that's fine, go for it. I think having a broad and well-versed base is more important than specializing though.

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I agree. Often at club level USPSA matches if we had time to shoot through the match a second time we would often swap rigs with a friend and reshoot the match. Watching a friend trying to reload my revolver on the clock was almost as funny at me trying to find the dot drawing his open blaster.

I shot other's guns enough that I was classified in Open, Limited and Single Stack using borrowed equipment in all three divisions since I did not own an appropriate gun for them.

Mark_Mark said:

pop a can at 50 yards

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These folks can, 1 handed. Great physical shape is the first requirement. Firing 270 rounds for score, sometimes, all in 1 day, requires it.

A 22 & 45 firearm, that shoots into the 10 ring at 50 yards from rest are a good start. Great ammo needed also.

Precision pistol has five different classes to compete in. All skill levels. Some will never make it out of the bottom class. Natural ability comes into play.

Photos show slow fire 50 yard scores, firing 20 shots. Perfect score is 200 -20X



At 79, using 2 hands i may be able to "wound" a soda can now.