Sleeved barrels?

CraigC said:

I think I answered those questions.

We're not talking about semi-autos, are we?

If every configuration and variation were available from manufacturers, custom gunsmiths wouldn't exist at all, would they?

Hmmm, I guess you have no idea what it takes to produce a custom one-piece DA barrel. It's a hell of a lot more than a $150 chop job.

Buy them disposable S&W's if you like, you're not gonna talk me into it.

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No, we aren't talking about semiautos, but the situation is the same, and it's not a problem. No one complains about being in the situation where they can't cut the barrel on a 5" 1911 to be 3" to have a custom 3" 1911. They'd simply sell their 5" and would buy a 1911 with a 3" barrel. S&W offers 2.75" and 4" Model 66 and 69, for example. I don't ever see the need or point of having to chop the barrel on a 4" when they offer a 2.75". I'd never chop the barrel on the 2.75". It's all a moot argument in this case. If I wanted a custom revolver candidate, I'd simply buy a different model that was better suited for it and would still purchase 2-piece models for revolvers that I never plan on modifying in that way.

You can buy one of the many S&W one peice barrels on the market and have it customized to fit the frame. Again, this is something 99.99% of millions of revolver owners don't care about and aren't ever going to do.

I still am not understanding how they are disposable? If the barrel or shroud is problematic, both can be repaired or replaced by S&W or a knowledgeable gunsmith with the right tools.

fxvr5 said:

Why can't they be removed?

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They can be removed but they can't be reinstalled. They're not made to be easily serviceable by a gunsmith.

Styx said:

No, we aren't talking about semiautos, but the situation is the same.....

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No, it isn't.

Styx said:

You can buy one of the many S&W one peice barrels on the market, and have it customized to fit the frame. Again, this is something 99.99% of millions of revolver owners don't care about and aren't ever going to do.

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So which is it, 99% or 99.99%? You really don't know, except that you are not one of the minority.

That is fine, until they run out. They're already NOT growing on trees. Again, this is a much more expensive proposition than chopping an existing barrel. Maybe I wasn't clear, the opinions, needs and preferences of 99.99% of revolver owners do not apply. This is my opinion and my opinion only. I'm not trying to talk anyone else into or out of anything. S&W has continually cheapened their product to the point that I no longer even consider them. You're free to spend your money however you see fit.

Styx said:

I still am not understanding how they are disposable? If the barrel or shroud is problematic, both can be repaired or replaced by S&W or a knowledgeable gunsmith with the right tools.

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Only serviceable by S&W. Until they decide to stop. I'd say there's a lot you do not understand and maybe should stick to what you do.

CraigC said:

They can be removed but they can't be reinstalled. They're not made to be easily serviceable by a gunsmith.

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First you say they can't be removed. Now you say they can be removed.

You now say they can't be reinstalled. Why not?

CraigC said:

They can be removed but they can't be reinstalled. They're not made to be easily serviceable by a gunsmith.

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Why couldn't they be reinstalled? They are still threaded into the frame are they not?

CraigC said:

Only serviceable by S&W. Until they decide to stop. I'd say there's a lot you do not understand and maybe should stick to what you do.

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Why wouldn't they still have the tools to remove the shroud and barrel into the foreseeable future? Even if they stopped, I'm sure shops would step in to fill the void being that these revolvers are very popular and sell well. If it was some 3rd tier manufacturer without much support or interest, I'd agree with you.

fxvr5 said:

First you say they can't be removed. Now you say they can be removed.

You now say they can't be reinstalled. Why not?

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They can't be removed without destroying the barrel. Not much point in removing a barrel if you can't put it back on, huh?

Styx said:

Why couldn't they be reinstalled? They are still threaded into the frame are they not?


Why wouldn't they still have the tools to remove the shroud and barrel into the foreseeable future? Even if they stopped, I'm sure shops would step in to fill the void being that these revolvers are very popular and sell well. If it was some 3rd tier manufacturer without much support or interest, I'd agree with you.

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The problem isn't the threads into the frame. It's the other end.

I don't know, why can't they replace a Triple-Lock barrel? Can they even replace a pre-crush fit barrel from 1980? Why can't Ruger service a Security Six? Is S&W guaranteed to be around forever?

CraigC said:

They can't be removed without destroying the barrel. Not much point in removing a barrel if you can't put it back on, huh?

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How is the barrel destroyed? Where do you get this information?

CraigC said:

They can't be removed without destroying the barrel. Not much point in removing a barrel if you can't put it back on, huh?

The problem isn't the threads into the frame. It's the other end.

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If they can be threaded into the barrel with enough force to keep it in place without damaging the barrel, why do you assume they can be removed without damaging the barrel? What it sounds like you're describing is Bubba trying to remove the barrel without the correct tooling.

CraigC said:

I don't know, why can't they replace a Triple-Lock barrel? Can they even replace a pre-crush fit barrel from 1980? Why can't Ruger service a Security Six? Is S&W guaranteed to be around forever?

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You are talking about complete design changes and no long supporting older designs that they no longer make components for vs un-twisting and retwisting a barrel. Most manufacturers stop servicing older designs that no longer make. That also goes for prelock Smiths. There are some repairs and replacement parts that S&W will no longer service when it comes to their prelock one peice barrels as well.

Google, it's a thing.

Styx said:

You are talking about complete design changes and no long supporting older designs that they no longer make components for.....

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Hmmm, ya don't say.

I have no experience with the modern shrouded barrels but it appears to be a method to reduce manufacturing costs only. I bought a Smith 14 with an 8" barrel and all the factory goodies back in the '70's and it proved to be very accurate. Not too long afterward I bought a Dan Wesson 15-2 VH 8. I believe the barrel system on them would be a tensioned barrel. It was enough more accurate with 38 special ammo that I traded the 14 for a model 19 Smith. I have never been able to get the accuracy I think the 19 is capable of and part of it is sight radius distance but mostly never finding grips that really worked well for me until recently. I am on the downhill side of abilities now and I can only compare what I can do with one to another, not what one is really capable of.

My most modern gun is a Ruger MK III 22/45 lite that has a tensioned barrel that cannot be removed without ruining the gun. In the case of the lite I see no other option for the barrel to make it remain light weight. I cannot shoot this pistol nearly as well as I can my MK IV target. I think it's mostly it's very light weight but can't help suspecting that thin barrel tube just isn't as good as the heavy barrel is.

Cutting a barrel has never been a thing with me. I just buy what length I want and let things be.

CraigC said:

They can't be removed without destroying the barrel. Not much point in removing a barrel if you can't put it back on, huh?

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I googled it and found nothing. I simply don't believe you. Why not?

You've already lied once. You said they can't be removed, then immediately reversed that when asked why. That means you wrote something you knew was not true. That's what we call a lie. That's a good reason to not believe you.

What I know is that S&W seems to have a hard time fitting one-piece barrels into their frames without crushing the barrel and distorting the bore at the point where it threads into the frame. I know this because I can measure it and see for myself that the bores are distorted. It's not hard to measure. Take a rod that is precision-ground to the inside-diameter of the lands and push it into the barrel. More often than not, it will stop where the barrel is screwed into the frame as it encounters resistance where the barrel is distorted. There is no good reason for the barrel to be choked at the breech end. Not all barrels are distorted, but I have measured more that are than those that are not. I consider it unacceptable.

fxvr5 said:

I googled it and found nothing. I simply don't believe you. Why not?

You've already lied once. You said they can't be removed, then immediately reversed that when asked why. That means you wrote something you knew was not true. That's what we call a lie. That's a good reason to not believe you.

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Okay genius, you can get away with a lot but you're not going to call me a friggin' liar. I've seen online discussions like the one below and I've talked to my gunsmith. If the barrel cannot be reinstalled, then it may be considered non-removable. The barrels on Heritage Rough Riders can technically be "removed" but try putting one back. Very similar to the barrels on the .454 and .480 SRH's. Yes, you can lop off the protrusion, mill out the frame and clean the remnants out of the threads but you've destroyed the barrel in the process. It's problematic to the point that the world renowned Hamilton Bowen considers them "non-removable". If you're not bright enough to understand the difference, I can't explain it any more clear. I know the S&W Kool Aid is strong but don't let it get personal.

Now, if you have any ACTUAL knowledge of how it works, then feel free to share.

CraigC said:

Okay genius, you can get away with a lot but you're not going to call me a friggin' liar. I've seen online discussions like the one below and I've talked to my gunsmith. If the barrel cannot be reinstalled, then it may be considered non-removable. The barrels on Heritage Rough Riders can technically be "removed" but try putting one back. Very similar to the barrels on the .454 and .480 SRH's. Yes, you can lop off the protrusion, mill out the frame and clean the remnants out of the threads but you've destroyed the barrel in the process. It's problematic to the point that the world renowned Hamilton Bowen considers them "non-removable". If you're not bright enough to understand the difference, I can't explain it any more clear. I know the S&W Kool Aid is strong but don't let it get personal.

Now, if you have any ACTUAL knowledge of how it works, then feel free to share.

Sleeved barrels

www.smithandwessonforums.com

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I am not see where he stated nor have you supplied any credible information stating why the barrel can not be unscrewed with the right tools with regards to S&W revolvers.

The tool is designed to fit the sleeve properly so it can be turned out without marking, denting, or damaging the sleeve or the frame.
I presently have a revolver with a damaged sleeve, and trust me, without using the correct tools to remove the sleeve there is no way on this earth I'd attempt to remove it without the proper tools. It will eventually go back to S&W's Service Center for replacement. Nobody here in Knoxville wants to mess with it.
Removing and/or replacing the sleeve and/or barrel is better left up to the pros, because if the parts are not reassembled to spec, the gun becomes dangerous, especially if the cylinder gap is set incorrectly.

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@CraigC FYI: I'm not sure if this will make you less upset about it or not. In 5 minutes of searching, I found a guy who has done two things you believed and have argued was not possible. He cut the barrel on his 2-piece barrel S&W 500, and he reinstalled the same barrel after he threaded the muzzle end. His pictures were on Photobucket, so of course they're gone. I am going to contact his to see if he still has photos of the finished product. Here's his detailed description.

[Edit] I fond another post by him with photos intact.







The finished project with 2-piece threaded barrel at the bottom.

It just doesn't/didn't make any logical sense to me that a barrel that was threaded into a frame couldn't be reinstalled again, aka screwed back in, after removal. It appears so far that it can be reinstalled.

@Styx I received a response from Smith & Wesson.
The email was blank.
I responded again to them telling them their message did not come through.
Here’s the irony. Look at their email address. It starts with “QA”.

No response from S&W today, so I sent another.

This is what I said:
“I asked this question a few days ago and I finally got a response from QA. Unfortunately there was nothing in that response. Not one word. Just a blank email.
Again, here is my question:
Does the model 60 Pro series have a one piece or a two piece barrel?
Thank you”

Hopefully they’ll respond with a legible response. If they don’t…

It is my understanding that Taurus is using a barrel sleeve and shroud also on the Raging Hunter series it was one of the changes they made when they quit making the Raging Bull series.

UPDATE!

@Styx I received another response from S&W. It was illegible on my iPhone but readable on my laptop but still very oddly configured.

Anyway, the S&W model 60 Pro has a ONE piece barrel!
So for three years I have believed it was a two piece barrel because of what I was told by S&W Customer Service twice in two different phone calls.
This still doesn’t change my opinion of Performance Center guns. What they did, or what one tech did to “fix” the problem with my 60 Pro is still ridiculous and completely unsatisfactory.
But on another note, my experience now with sleeved barrels is at 100% as I only have 1 gun with that feature. My 327 Night Guard.

Editing my prior posts.

Edit: It seems the ability to edit posts times out after a short period of time. I cannot edit my first post stating the my 60 Pro had a two piece barrel.

My original post, #12, has been edited for me by @Mal H

There is a hack for removing S&W two piece barrels without the special tool. You put a square rod down the bore and pour in cerrosafe.

Purely preference but I prefer non-sleeved for some of the same reasons noted above. I will however concede that some firearms I own as well as a few I plan to own are not available in standard 1-piece configuration. Rather than forgo ownership I consider the practical points as they pertain to me; will I wear it out, will I need modification, will it detract from my enjoyment? Floridians don’t buy snow machines for the same reason others don’t own thong bikinis, it just don’t math right. But if your State shares a border with Canada you may have plans for a sled.

As to personal experience I can say the LW Target 10/22 I have shot on multiple occasions was certainly accurate when compared to a standard Sporter or carbine model while my Mk IV Bull barrel outshoots my Lite barrel.



Now for the side discussion, I have been here at THR for a number of years, which is to say long enough to have taken note of certain individuals. @CraigC has more than occasionally provided sensible, knowledgeable, and factual information when posting. Given that history there should be no call for accusations of lying, particularly given that a singular exception to the rule was all that could be found. How anyone could extrapolate that into spreading falsehood is beneath the level of discussion meant for these pages. Let’s please remain civilized and on topic.