10% over max powder?

JEBruns

JEBruns

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Location
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Berger manual shows 22.4 of N140 as the max load for their .224 77gr OTM bullet.

UR reverse engineered a Remington Match factory round that they were very impressed with, which uses that same bullet, and found it used 24.6 grains of N140.

Re-creating Berger’s AMAZING 77 OTM 223 Load – Ultimate Reloader

ultimatereloader.com ultimatereloader.com

I tried the UR load and it was more accurate, by a fair margin, than the Berger max load out of my gun. No signs of over pressure.

I was surprised how much hotter the Rem load was, over 2 grains more. I've always been kind of a stickler for not going past recommended loads. But I'm wondering, given the above as an example, if I should be pushing that more. While paying attention for over pressure signs, of course. I guess the reloading books have to veer sharply to the "very safe" side of their recipes, given all the dynamics each reloader and their guns might bring to the table.

So my question for the guys with experience in this area, is it fairly common to be as much at 10% over the listed max loads?
 
JEBruns said:
Berger manual shows 22.4 of N140 as the max load for their .224 77gr OTM bullet.

UR reverse engineered a Remington Match factory round that they were very impressed with, which uses that same bullet, and found it used 24.6 grains of N140.

Re-creating Berger’s AMAZING 77 OTM 223 Load – Ultimate Reloader

ultimatereloader.com ultimatereloader.com

I tried the UR load and it was more accurate, by a fair margin, than the Berger max load out of my gun. No signs of over pressure.

I was surprised how much hotter the Rem load was, over 2 grains more. I've always been kind of a stickler for not going past recommended loads. But I'm wondering, given the above as an example, if I should be pushing that more. While paying attention for over pressure signs, of course. I guess the reloading books have to veer sharply to the "very safe" side of their recipes, given all the dynamics each reloader and their guns might bring to the table.

So my question for the guys with experience in this area, is it fairly common to be as much at 10% over the listed max loads?
Click to expand...
What were your strain gauge readings?
 
UR reverse engineered a Remington Match factory round that they were very impressed with, which uses that same bullet, and found it used 24.6 grains of N140.


No, they speculated.


24.6 grains, or 24.7 if you round up!

It might very well be N140 but I have never read about looking at a powder and determining what brand it is.


After close examination with some powders we had on hand (focusing on Vihtavuori) we speculated it was Vihtavuori N140.
 
IF in fact the powder was V-N140,
. . . and . . .
IF I adjust the powder burn rate* to match UR's resultant velocity with a 24" barrel....

FROM QL: I'm getting a heavily-compressed load in the case (114%), and 56 ksia pressure.

For entertainment only
I in no way recommend this combo to other reloaders.
:what:

* (Quite a bit I might add)
 
Rule3 said:
UR reverse engineered a Remington Match factory round that they were very impressed with, which uses that same bullet, and found it used 24.6 grains of N140.
No, they speculated.

It might very well be N140 but I have never read about looking at a powder and determining what brand it is.
After close examination with some powders we had on hand (focusing on Vihtavuori) we speculated it was Vihtavuori N140.
Click to expand...
:eek: :what: :eek: :what:

DON"T DO IT! UR has a multitude of fascinating toys, but can't even come close to Remington's test lab(s)! Speculation=Assume 💀
 
Rule3 said:
UR reverse engineered a Remington Match factory round that they were very impressed with, which uses that same bullet, and found it used 24.6 grains of N140.


No, they speculated.


24.6 grains, or 24.7 if you round up!

It might very well be N140 but I have never read about looking at a powder and determining what brand it is.


After close examination with some powders we had on hand (focusing on Vihtavuori) we speculated it was Vihtavuori N140.
Click to expand...
That is correct, but given the results, it seems they were on target.

So I gather the answer is that most folks don't push their loads that much above the listed max?
 
Last edited:
Looking at Vihtavuori's own load data, 223Rem/Lapua case/N140/24.7gr/Berger 77/OTM is not Max load.

Rifle reloading data | Handloading | Rifle calibers | Centerfire Rifle bullets | Reload your own ammo - Vihtavuori

Vihtavuori offers rifle reloading data for numerous calibers and bullets for match and hunting purposes. Never exceed maximum loads.
www.vihtavuori.com www.vihtavuori.com
...and with their 25" test barrel, pretty much dead on for velocity at 25.0 gr (compressed) of powder.
(Gentle Readers, do take a look at let me know if incorrect)

.
 
Hmm… chasing velocity with untested (at that level) powder. Not sure that’s a good idea.

UR makes good videos but I’m sure he won’t guarantee the results or safety of that load.
 
MEHavey said:
Looking at Vihtavuori's own load data, 223Rem/Lapua case/N140/24.7gr/Berger 77/OTM is not Max load.

Rifle reloading data | Handloading | Rifle calibers | Centerfire Rifle bullets | Reload your own ammo - Vihtavuori

Vihtavuori offers rifle reloading data for numerous calibers and bullets for match and hunting purposes. Never exceed maximum loads.
www.vihtavuori.com www.vihtavuori.com
...and with their 25" test barrel, pretty much dead on for velocity at 25.0 gr (compressed) of powder.
(Gentle Readers, do take a look at let me know if incorrect)

.
Click to expand...

From the Vihavuori link Berger 77 OTM
N1401,4322.177225331,62C25.0C8582815


Still guessing at what powder though.
 
JEBruns said:
So I gather the answer is that most folks don't push their loads that much above the listed max?
Click to expand...
Never really needed to. What are you hunting that needs more speed? Whatever it is, instead of trying more powder try a better bullet.
 
MEHavey said:
Looking at Vihtavuori's own load data, 223Rem/Lapua case/N140/24.7gr/Berger 77/OTM is not Max load.

Rifle reloading data | Handloading | Rifle calibers | Centerfire Rifle bullets | Reload your own ammo - Vihtavuori

Vihtavuori offers rifle reloading data for numerous calibers and bullets for match and hunting purposes. Never exceed maximum loads.
www.vihtavuori.com www.vihtavuori.com
...and with their 25" test barrel, pretty much dead on for velocity at 25.0 gr (compressed) of powder.
(Gentle Readers, do take a look at let me know if incorrect)

.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the a great reply, and the link. I'll bookmark that one for sure. And they have an app. Nice.

Interesting that the Berger listed max is so far below what Viht recommends. And I've seen some pretty big swings between different reloading manuals and over time. I just wonder how much CYA is incorporated in some of the recipes.
 
Last edited:
JEBruns said:
Interesting that the Berger listed max is so far below what Viht recommends.
Click to expand...

Remember, there are always differences in testing methodology... the devil is in the details. For that matter, Berger may have had an accuracy or energy expectation in their testing, above just velocity or max pressure. They may have reached that in their testing, popped a brew, and called it a day.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Never really needed to. What are you hunting that needs more speed? Whatever it is, instead of trying more powder try a better bullet.
Click to expand...
I'm hunting accuracy. I don't generally go for the hot loads. If I can get light bullets at slower speeds to be in the .2-.4 5 shot MOA at 100yds, I'm happy. Figure my barrels will last longer that way. But I have been searching for a good heavier bullet load that is accurate. I've tried a lot of ladders with various powders/bullets trying to get there. This load is the best so far for me at .3xx groups.

I will still mostly shoot the lighter bullets with the lighter loads. But part of the fun of reloading for me is finding loads that are very accurate for a range of bullet weights.
 
JEBruns said:
I'm hunting accuracy. I don't generally go for the hot loads. If I can get light bullets at slower speeds to be in the .2-.4 5 shot MOA at 100yds, I'm happy. Figure my barrels will last longer that way. But I have been searching for a good heavier bullet load that is accurate. I've tried a lot of ladders with various powders/bullets trying to get there. This load is the best so far for me at .3xx groups.

I will still mostly shoot the lighter bullets with the lighter loads. But part of the fun of reloading for me is finding loads that are very accurate for a range of bullet weights.
Click to expand...
Your thread went sideways because your proposal to massively exceed published maximums. By Walkalong's data that opening statement was verified incorrect. Step one should be to gather all relevant data and then determine its validity and saftey.... jumping from internet video to questioning max and apparently intent in exceeding it not a great formula for long term..... I'd close the thread and move in a different direction....
 
In a 1:8 twist barrel with a tight chamber,
24.0-24.2 N140 shoots really well behind a 77 SMK. 24.5 showed pressure signs and accuracy started to fade.

24.6 N540 shot well with the 77 SMK, and I have not tried to go higher.
 
Here is what I think. Most reloading data does not include 5.56 pressure data. Hodgdon used to but they stopped for what is likely CYA laywer excuses. Berger is probably following suite and only publishing .223 Remington pressure data. The data UR was using is likely for a 5.56 pressure load. I see this rather often.
 
I can’t help but believe this is exactly why so many indoor and outdoor ranges are prohibiting handloads. The liability of operating a shooting range is already insane but adding to it the likelihood of deliberate overloads - potentially unsafe loads - causing injuries to innocent bystanders; that’s got to have underwriters cringing.

Private land, isolated, only people who know the risks nearby - go for it. Just make sure the world knows you’re not going to be bringing it to a public place.
 
AJC1 said:
Your thread went sideways because your proposal to massively exceed published maximums.
Click to expand...
I don't mind it going sideways a bit. Ended up getting some good information from a couple of the posts.
AJC1 said:
jumping from internet video to questioning max and apparently intent in exceeding it not a great formula for long term.....
Click to expand...
Turns out the load was not exceeding max, according to Viht's load data. Read the responses above.
 
JEBruns said:
Berger manual shows 22.4 of N140 as the max load for their .224 77gr OTM bullet.

UR reverse engineered a Remington Match factory round that they were very impressed with, which uses that same bullet, and found it used 24.6 grains of N140.

Re-creating Berger’s AMAZING 77 OTM 223 Load – Ultimate Reloader

ultimatereloader.com ultimatereloader.com

I tried the UR load and it was more accurate, by a fair margin, than the Berger max load out of my gun. No signs of over pressure.

I was surprised how much hotter the Rem load was, over 2 grains more. I've always been kind of a stickler for not going past recommended loads. But I'm wondering, given the above as an example, if I should be pushing that more. While paying attention for over pressure signs, of course. I guess the reloading books have to veer sharply to the "very safe" side of their recipes, given all the dynamics each reloader and their guns might bring to the table.

So my question for the guys with experience in this area, is it fairly common to be as much at 10% over the listed max loads?
Click to expand...
2 tenths of a grain, not 2 grains
 
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