Man stabs cop to death before armed civilian stops him.

S.Crockett said:

Veteran Walmart shoppers already know to do this.

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I never shopped at Walmart
I did spend about $100K in training last 40 years, before that got paid for it .

FYI
There was a video put out in the 1980's ------- yea that long ago.
Surviving edged weapons.
It stated VERY clearly that turning your back was THE WORST thing to do when attacked with a knife.
It was a class given by "Street Survival" a group that made a ton of money BUT did not teach you exactly what to do.
Just what NOT to do.
I attended 2 of their seminars and then got annoyed at what they did NOT teach = actual street survival.
But the lesson of not turning your back was LOUD & CLEAR.

Kleanbore said:

What does that mean?

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An excellent question.

If you're walking down the street and someone attacks you, who is to blame for the attack?

Pick a number of scenarios and think about it, with the only stipulation being that the person walking down the street isn't doing so in a credibly threatening way.

The person who makes the decision to attack another bears the responsibility for the assault.

However, the person walking down the street is ultimately responsible for their own safety.

The phrase "don't do stupid things at stupid times with stupid people in stupid places" comes to mind.

The fact that ant given person OUGHT to be able to walk down a given street at any time without being attacked does not belie the fact that there ARE people out there who would do them harm if given the chance.

That person has little, if any, control over a would-be attacker. But they DO have a LOT of control over their own actions. Their choices are important in this aspect.

S.Crockett said:

So maybe cops and legally-armed civies need to adhere to the 50-ft Rule for shooting an attacker rushing at them with an edged-weapon?

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If there's a "rule" to be had, it's that there are no such iron clad rules.

One has to be aware, evaluating, and adaptable, at least enough to appropriately elevate one's chances at detecting, evading, and surviving a violent encounter.

50 feet is probably enough for one aware of a potential attack. For one not aware?

And 50 is also not a reasonable distance in a great many social instances, like crowds for example.

lemaymiami said:

... Look up the stats on officers killed with their own weapons each year - during my era it was about one third of all officer deaths around the country ...

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I remember back in the late 90's researching the stats on this, and it was running about 15% according to FBI numbers. The increasing introduction of L2/3 duty holsters and more attention to DT seemed to be bringing the numbers down as the 2000's rolled around.

Here's a snap shot of one recent year, albeit from a different source than the FBI's LEOKA stats. Note how the most violent years for cops was in the 70's & 80's ... but with the way society has been attacking its peace keepers, it makes me wonder if we'll see those sort of numbers again, someday soon.

"Handguns were the leading type of firearm used in fatal shootings of law enforcement officers in 2021. Of the 62 officer fatalities, 32 were killed with a handgun, 8 were killed by a rifle, 4 were killed with shotguns, and 1 was killed by the officer’s own weapon. The type of firearm used in the remaining 17 fatalities is still under investigation or unknown at this time"

Peakbagger46 said:

That cop did nothing wrong. LE doesn’t approach typical calls for service from 20 yards away and demand folks show their hands. No time to get of the X or draw a gun either.

Hard truth- it’s easy to kill anyone if you have the element of surprise and are committed. Murder isn’t hard.

As a long standing patrol cop, I stay in shape/train but that could happen to me tomorrow.

We all pays our money and takes our chances.

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Indeed. However, looking at the environment where the individual (RP? Suspect? Witness?) was standing, the cop could've easily paused a moment at 7-10yds to ask/confirm if the individual was the RP. Normal verbal engagement during a normal approach. Sure, the suspect could've lied and tried to lure the cop in for the ambush attack, anyway.

Over the decades I ran into my fair share of situations where the distances were close because of the circumstances, but even more when I (we) could take opportunistic advantage of more open conditions and slight distances to start identifying who's who in the zoo.

If the job was easy and the situations always simple, anyone could do it.

fastbolt said:

the cop could've easily paused a moment at 7-10yds to ask/confirm if the individual was the RP.

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Tragic incident, but he should have stopped at a distance.

RetiredUSNChief said:

An excellent question.

If you're walking down the street and someone attacks you, who is to blame for the attack?

Pick a number of scenarios and think about it, with the only stipulation being that the person walking down the street isn't doing so in a credibly threatening way.

The person who makes the decision to attack another bears the responsibility for the assault.

However, the person walking down the street is ultimately responsible for their own safety.

The phrase "don't do stupid things at stupid times with stupid people in stupid places" comes to mind.

The fact that ant given person OUGHT to be able to walk down a given street at any time without being attacked does not belie the fact that there ARE people out there who would do them harm if given the chance.

That person has little, if any, control over a would-be attacker. But they DO have a LOT of control over their own actions. Their choices are important in this aspect.

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Exactly ! Say sure I have the right to walk down a dark street in a known crime area late at night. But how would it be accepted if a teen aged ethnic gang attacked me and I opened up my coat and took on a dozen or more with say a legal SDMP5 and a belt full of magazines? Guess who gets national crazy evil mass killer sticker ?
So I wouldn't do that. Heck I feel Over gunned these days with legally carrying a custom P320C and a few reloads , I don't seem to miss many plates with it I would be the bad guy if I won even if was shot at and the attackers were armed .I stay away from bad places, and even rural places have bad folk a plenty to stay away from .
In short don't go into dangerous situations if you don't have a badge, and today the poor cops are discouraged from defending them selves which makes them dangerously hesitant . Look at recent NYC , it went from Defund the Police to National guard in subways and its happening all over .
The situation for most LEOs today is very sad and very dangerous , more social work and less righteous lead slinging, we will see how that works out ! I talk with Sheriff friends privately almost every day, they are counting days till retirement and they love what they do and are my first line of protection .

Gordon said:

... I talk with Sheriff friends privately almost every day, they are counting days till retirement and they love what they do and are my first line of protection .

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I've been 'magnetized' lately, meaning I've been meeting increasingly more cops in my circle of folks at my cigar club. Most have only 10-15yrs on the job, and they've been talking about the usual subjects of buying homes and new trucks, daily LE activities and politics (and how it affects the way they do their jobs). However, the ones I've been meeting, and already know, with maybe 3 or fewer years to go before they're eligible to retire? They can see the light at the end of the tunnel and they're busy making plans to bail at the earliest time possible.

I've also been hearing, from a friend in the healthcare field, that the numbers of public safety members of various agencies (meaning both LE and Fire) looking to get a medical retirement is continuing to grow. Getting that golden medical has enabled a growing number of folks to cut some years off the time needed for a service retirement (and since cops and fire fighters often accrue injuries at an alarming rate, it's not like it's not justified by a lot of them).

Considering all of the institutional and experiential knowledge bailing in the last 2-3 years, and how it's accelerating, making 'new' cops to fill those openings is going to be a difficult and daunting task in the more progressive places around America. The more conservative places are going to be able to better retain their cops, and keep them interested in remaining longer ... and attract them from the progressive cities/counties seeing their cops retiring and fleeing. Naturally, it'll baffle the progressive voters and politicians.

S.Crockett said:

50 yards? So 150-ft? That's IPSC grandmaster distance. Are you at Ben Stoeger's level?

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With training it's not difficult to shoot at 50 yards. It's not the distance that makes the grandmaster, it's the speed at which they can shoot at such distance.

Go to a class by any of the masters such as Stoerger, Defoor, or any of the others and you'll see the whole class shooting that distance.

shafter said:

With training it's not difficult to shoot at 50 yards. It's not the distance that makes the grandmaster, it's the speed at which they can shoot at such distance.
...

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Well, at my last firearms instructor update before retirement, they were still requiring the instructor/students to shoot a scored course-of-fire that went out to 50yds (silhouette targets). We had to do it with duty pistols using normal irons ... and then again with the sights taped over (front & rear). It used to be basic stuff, but some of the younger instructors struggled a bit. Guess they didn't come up learning how to shoot revolvers in DA at 50yds.

fastbolt said:

Well, at my last firearms instructor update before retirement, they were still requiring the instructor/students to shoot a scored course-of-fire that went out to 50yds (silhouette targets). We had to do it with duty pistols using normal irons ... and then again with the sights taped over (front & rear). It used to be basic stuff, but some of the younger instructors struggled a bit. Guess they didn't come up learning how to shoot revolvers in DA at 50yds.

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For sure. It really just comes down to rock solid fundamentals and decent eyes. I think too many shooters handicap themselves by believing that 25 yards is a long shot and never pushing their limits.

shafter said:

For sure. It really just comes down to rock solid fundamentals and decent eyes. I think too many shooters handicap themselves by believing that 25 yards is a long shot and never pushing their limits.

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Several years ago, when we were putting together a class for the POST Tactical Weapons part of in-service training, we decided to slip in some fun for the guys & gals scheduled for the class. Once we gave them some basic refreshers, we set up some standard size pepper poppers for them to shoot at 50yds. Their reactions?


The groans and nervousness was evident, but we coaxed them into trying it ... and we slowed everyone down and made sure they knew it could be done more easily than they seemed to think. Once the ringing steel started, the smiles were everywhere. Then, we let them see how small the pepper poppers were compared to the average silhouette targets. They no longer had any excuses to miss getting solid hits on silhouettes only out to 25yds.

Both the Greenwood Mall and Fairchild AFB incidents were remarkable examples of successful long-range defensive handgun use.

... but I would offer very (very) few individuals of any type/any organization are capable of same.

Most organizations (military included) with limited budgets & time train to "most probable/best use" situations.
So outside of specialized units, most Individuals are going to be on their own time, own money, and own equipment to train for anything over & above.


On occasion, though God takes a hand.
(4 seconds start-to-finish, moving target, multiple distractions, multiple shots already fired, multiple innocents, one man already walking dead.... and still....)

.

This one was pretty damned impressive. Calm, deliberate and sufficiently skilled ... and he didn't appear to have startled the horses, either.

One-Handed Pistol Shot at 104 Yards, While Holding Horses​

Sgt. Adam Johnson was reportedly holding a pair of horses by the reins when he spotted the shooter firing at the police headquarters building. Holding the horses’ reins in one hand, he drew and aimed his .40-caliber pistol with his other hand, and squeezed off a shot.

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Key phrase from the Texas case above:
>
> ...believed that divine intervention ...."
>
Truer words were never spoken ...at that kind of range.



(But God's next words in a low whisper, "...don't get used to it." )

S.Crockett said:

50 yards? So 150-ft? That's IPSC grandmaster distance. Are you at Ben Stoeger's level?

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It isn't THAT hard to hit an IPSC target at 50 yards with a full size pistol.

Risk mitigation. Very important. Still, one can do everything reasonable to reduce risk, and still you're just screwed.

I don't know how much thought you've put into this but I'm sure it wasn't a passing thought. I never used to be concerned when I had to go to a store at night but now with an influx of seven to fifteen million immigrants (many undocumented) I'm very concerned, not only regarding rogue individuals, but vicious gang members as well. Think about what we're losing and maybe have already lost!