Does the 357sig have any redeeming value?

I'd rather have overpenetration than underpenetration.

I'm an automatic fan, but there's no arguing what the .357 Magnum can do in the "good" loads. The .357 Sig and 9mm +P+ come within 200FPS or so of some of the newer factory loads, but that's because a lot of ammo is severly downloaded from it's original specifications. Wasn't the original .357 Magnum load a 158gr. at 1400FPS?

I'd rather have overpenetration than underpenetration.

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I think they're both bad for different reasons. I dont think either one is less bad.

This thread reminds me of the old saying "Lies, da#m lies, and statistics."

I have no first hand knowledge of the topic, but a buddy who is currently active told me last year that the .357SIG was better at penetrating body armor.

Hearsay never did like Statistics, prefering to keep company with Rumor and Gossip--much more interesting fellows (and what stories they would tell!).

Hearsay never did like Statistics, prefering to keep company with Rumor and Gossip--much more interesting fellows (and what stories they would tell!).

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Statistics have their place, but they are the beginning, not the end of the discussion. 100% of divorces begin in marriage, is a statistic, but I don't know how useful it is.

Or as my History professor always said "The facts don't speak for themselves, the stupid things just lie there on the page staring back at you."

As for 9mm+p+ being hard on pistols not necessarily designed for the velocities involved, isn't that a problem best handled by a stronger or progressive recoil spring rather than a general "beefing up" of the slide like a .40 S&W firing pistol? Just curious about that minor detail.

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A heavier recoil spring might mitigate some of the slide to frame battering from the higher pressure loads. But it won't do anything about the higher pressure inside the barrel and chamber. And you can only overspring a pistol so much before it stops cycling. And a heavier spring may make the gun open softer, but it will close harder.

It's probably a wash...

I believe Zack has a point and is back his point up with Good Stats and not hearsay internet rumors or personal opinions with no merit. Lets look at the Is and Is nots of the .357 sig round. Below are some threads that have already compared service pistol calibers at TacticalForums.com by Dr.Gary K. Roberts.

comparing service pistol calibers
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000581;p=1

357 Sig questions
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000217

357 sig barrier penetration
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000368


Now to my Personal opinion

The .357 Sig mostly uses Bond Bullets which I think help with penetration.Ammo is more expensive then .40 cal S&W and 9mm and equals less range time. The .357 Sig does not perform any better the a .40 cal and in my opinion the .40 cal outperforms the .357 sig in Cloth Gelatin.

Dr. Roberts is one of the foremost authorities on terminal ballistics. Here's what he says about 357SIG on TacticalForums (those linked threads)

"Partywaggin", you might consider re-assessing your comment that the 357 Sig compares to the .45 ACP--the 357 Sig has nearly identical expansion and permanent crush cavity compared with the 9 mm, not .45 ACP. The only area where the 357 Sig is similar to .45 ACP is with the temporary cavity, however, since the stretch effects are relatively minor with all of these service calibers and cause no significant injury, the similarity is moot.

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SOCFK, the 125 gr Speer Gold Dot and 125 gr Federal Tactical are the best 357 Sig loads we have tested, followed by the 125 gr Federal HST . The Win 125 gr Ranger Talon has suffered from some inconsistent performance in our testing--sometimes exhibiting over-expansion and underpenetration in bare gel, but adequate performance against denim.

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Interesting, in both our testing and that done by the FBI, there was no major differences in terminal performance when assessing the better performing loads in 9mm compared to .357 Sig. http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html

Is the .357 Sig bad? NO! It is a very reliably performing 9mm bullet, but it is does not offer significantly better terminal performance compared with the best current 9mm ammunition.

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(note link dead in original)

When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the .357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS, as demonstrated by both our testing and that of the FBI. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and .357 Sig loads.

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How about the following:

1. The 357 Sig is a modern cartridge benefiting from the latest engineering concepts. As such, the bullets loaded with it have generally all been designed and tested using the latest FBI, IWBA, etc... testing protocols. This results in less failures to expand and thus greater tissue damage.

2. The 357 Sig has only recently been adopted. For most agencies, adoption of a new weapon system frequently necessitates more intensive training and instruction than might typically occur, thus officer's shooting skills might be at a higher peak than normal.

3. Since according to data from Fackler and others, approximately 50% of shooting victims are incapacitated by psychological mechanisms, it is possible that the increased blast, flash, and noise of the 357 Sig enhances psychological perceptions of being shot.

4. We have not observed any greater incapacitation in actual shootings with users of 357 Sig loads compared to those users of 9 mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP who are using equivalent modern, well engineered ammunition.

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I am looking at 2 separate FBI tests of 357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot compared to 3 different FBI tests of 9 mm 124 gr Gold Dot: the results are basically the same in terms of expansion and penetration depths. In the steel testing, two of the 9mm's penetrated slightly deeper than the 357 Sig's--one 9mm expanded better, one the same, one slightly less. There was around 100-200 f/s or so velocity difference between the 9mm's and .357 Sig's, depending on which barrel lengths and lots were compared. As far as I can tell, terminal performance between the two calibers is roughly equivalent, with a slight edge to the 357 Sig because of its more consistent performance.

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I recently had an interesting conversation with an experienced ammunition engineer at one of the major ammo companies. He didn't particularly like the 357 Sig from an engineering perspective and described their difficulties in designing and producing 357 Sig ammunition which consistently performs as well as their ammunition in other service calibers. In particular, he felt his company's 357 Sig loads offered no better performance than their top 9 mm loads and stated their .40 S&W loads were superior in every respect to their 357 Sig ammunition. He firmly believes their .40 S&W offerings are the best performing duty ammunition his company produces.

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On a bit of a side note, could someone explain these results? These are the calibration BBs.

Zak, are those FBI results (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php) five shot averages, or just a single firing?

All of those were FBI results as listed by the FTI site. I am not sure of the statistical protocol.

I found something here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs26.htm

"In each test event, five shots are fired. A new gelatin block and new test material are used for each individual shot."


But the closer I look at this gelatin stuff, the more complex things become.

"A good researcher/author will publish his ordnance gelatin calibration data (BB velocity and penetration)." --http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm

"When gelatin is not calibrated it’s impossible to determine the validity of the data." --http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm

"The FBI also does not give details about gelatin block calibration data in its reports." --http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs23.htm

And a real curve ball:

"As a bullet penetrates soft tissue, it loses velocity, and this affects its "effective diameter." When the bullet first penetrates and expands, it is moving so quickly that it crushes almost all soft tissue it comes into direct contact with. However, as velocity begins to slow, soft tissue is then able to stretch around the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder to move out of the way. As the bullet slows further it plows more and more tissue aside instead of crushing it.

Near the end of the wound track, the diameter of the permanent cavity might be less than 60 percent of the expanded diameter of the bullet. The last few inches of the wound track are the most important because this is where the vital cardiovascular structures are located that you’re trying to damage."
--http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm

I performed an interesting experiment on deer, using precise and repeatable shot placement to compare the average distance run before dropping when hit by a Winchester 147 grain 9mm HP at 990 FPS to the average distance ran when hit by a Quik-Shok 115 grain at 1450 FPS. The 9mm bullet produced an average drop distance of roughly 99 yards. The .357 bullet produced an average drop distance of roughly 49 yards.

This seems to indicate a significant advantage to the .357 Sig, even though this .357 Sig load produces a significantly smaller wound channel in gelatin.

Michael Courtney

Oy. Not only is firearmstactical reporting that the size of the permanent crush cavity decreases (relative to the size of the bullet) along the length of the wound track, but also that the size of the crush cavity varies depending on the type/shape of the bullet:

"A round nose FMJ bullet crushes a permanent cavity in soft tissue that averages approximately 66 percent of the bullet’s diameter. Whereas the blunt, non-aerodynamic shape of an expanded JHP bullet crushes a permanent cavity that averages approximately 82 percent of the bullet’s expanded diameter." --http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs23.htm

I carry a Glock 31 in .357 SIG w/ 125gr Ranger T ammo. That is what the agency that I work for issues to field officers. I don't know anyone who has any complaints about the G31, or the authorized back-up G33. I figure if I put the rounds where they need to go, it will do as good a job as any other handgun.

I went through a period in time where I wanted to have a handgun in every fairly common caliber. I bought a Sig 229 in .40 and got a factory .357 Sig barrel. I was never a big .40 fan because I have many 10mm and find them superior to the .40S&W and more accurate. I shot it more in .357 Sig and with Winchester 125g FMJ White Box I could put all 50 from a box into the black of an NRA 25 yard target, with most 9, 10 & X ring. Like an idiot I sold it. Then I found myself wanting another. I found a CPO Sig 229 .357 and bought it. I have no shot it yet but I hope to soon.

Redeeming value? Well, I like it better than a .40 S&W. In the Sig 229 at least it is a very accurate round. Despite gelatin tests, a 125g .355 bullet at 1400fps will at a minimum be a little more "powerful" than a .355 bullet at 1250fps. For me I just like the variety. I wouldn't feel more undergunned with a 9mm versus a .357 Sig, although I would comparing either to a 10mm. When it boils down to it if I get shot in the let I probably won't know the difference between the two and if I get shot in the heart I doubt I will either. And last but not least, for Sig it's redeeming value is that they now have a round named after them, LOL.

Luger had the 9mm Luger
Colt had the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol
Smith & Wesson had the .40 Short & Weak, er I mean .40 Smith and Wesson
Sig had the .357 Sig
Glock had the .45 Glock Automatic Pistol
Guncrafter Industries had the .50 Guncrafter Industries
North American Arms had the .32 North American Arms

Of course there are more, like Browning with the 9mm Browning Long. So now they can all be remembered even if they go out of business (or stop selling to civilians like Colt --- JUST KIDDING!). Notice there is no .25 Lorcin Auto Pistol, or Jennings .250 Jennings Hood Robber, LOL.

The 357SIG is in its infancy. The 9mm is about 95 years up. Lets keep working with it and see where it will take us.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/ca...id=79&osCsid=f69b3d418c90cd438076fc76e93935e7

I like the round and I love my P229 & G31, that's all that matters to me,





If you don't like something don't buy it.

I like the round and I love my P229 & G31, that's all that matters to me

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I think that sums it up best, people will either like it or not for their own reasons just as with every other caliber.

I have not taken the time to read all of the posts but would like to share my opinion.

YES, the .357 SIG does have redeeming value.
If you really hate the cartridge you can always convert the gun to .40 S&W or 9mm.

The .357 Sig does have one quality that nobody has mentioned yet. When I get home from shooting and dump the empty cases in the tumbler, the .357 cases don't fit inside the .40 cases so I don't have to spend an hour picking them apart by hand. If you don't reload, you wouldn't understand!


Get a friggin' grip already! You want true stopping power, get your brakes fixed!