THR, legal assistance needed

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El Tejon

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Lafayette, Indiana-the Ned Flanders neighbor to Il
I have a C Felony, Carrying a Handgun with Obliterated Serial Number, and I need THR's help for a coming motion to dismiss (but first I need to show pics to the deputy prosecuting attorney so I may not have to have the hearing).

MOSTLY AGREED UPON FACT PATTERN: Kid, 19, from Chicago, driving to Auntay's house in Indy to visit and see about moving to Indy for a job and getting out of da hood, couple of knucklehead friends with him from da hood. Exit off I-65 to State Road 26 in Lafayette to grab dinner before getting to Indy. My guy is still driving at "highway speed" down SR26 when LPD scout car pulls him over for exceeding posted speed limit.

Game of hot potato ensues with pistol (Ruger, Mark I, .22lr). Passed around car until my guy ends up with it and sticks behind back in his waist band of pants. Pull over in chain restaurant parking lot.

Police seeing bunch of movement in car and gets everyone out. Back up scout cars arrive in under 30 seconds. Cops ask about drugs. No one has drugs. Cops ask about weapons, no one says anything, but pat down produces pistol with punched up serial number with paint or ink run over punch job.

No one says nothing about punch job just about who had pistol (imagine the 3 Stooges all pointing fingers at each other). My guy gets mouthy and then shuts up. Police arrest him for C felony (also misdemeanor carrying without license) and cut other two loose.

No allegations of robbery, intimidation, or misuse of the firearm in any way if anyone is worried about that. No allegation that pistol is stolen. C Felony, Possession of Handgun with Obliterated Serial Number, and Class A misdemeanor, Carrying a handgun Without A License

WHAT I NEED: Photos of handguns (pistols and revolvers) with serial numbers in different places so I can show DPA that makers put them in different places so it may be hard to spot serial number (especially in dark car while driving).

Thank you in advance.:)
 
El T,

Don't all S&W revolvers have the S/Ns on the frame inside of the cylinder?

I'll get some pics out to you today.
 
This is a close-up of the S/N of one of my Smiths. Doesn't really show the location of the S/N, but it is on the inside of the crane.
 

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A number of handgun makers used to stamp the serial number on various parts to insure fitted parts would get put together correctly in final assembly. Smith & Wesson for example, would serial number the frame, back of the cylinder, bottom of the barrel, and sometimes inside the sideplate. Stocks (or at least one side) were numbered because they were fitted to an individual frame.

Colt at one time serial numbered frames and slides on some pistols.

The problem here is that I don't think that Ruger did this on their .22 pistols, because the grip-frames were not individually fitted to the barreled receiver. This may have changed in recent times though. I would give Ruger's Customer Service Department (203) 259-7843 and get some accurate, up-to-date information.

If photographs of other guns (Smith & Wesson in particular) will help I'll see what I can do.
 
Fly, no sometimes Smith put them on the butt of the revolver. I had a case a few years ago where they arrested my guy in an apple orchard with a Smith revovler on him and said it was obliterated when in fact the number was on the butt of the pistol. I had a thread on it on THR.

Old, not worried so much with Ruger. I need different locations of any number of manufacturers.
 
Places to look for SN: insides of sideplates of revolvers, scrached inside grips, barrel hoods, bolts, frame/receiver, slide, magazines, bayonets (this is heplful, right?:uhoh:), grip frames, cylinders, cranes, stocks, and I'm sure lots more. I can email you pics if you'll take off the last couple of letters and don't care that they're not resized.

You may want to go to http://collectorsfirearms.com/
as they take good photos.
 
Hell, my ruger Security six has the S/N on the bottom of the butt (which is completely covered by the Pachmayr grips). That'd be pretty hard to spot under any conditions unless you had a screwdriver and about 5 minutes.
 
If it was an old revolver, it may not have had a serial number, IIRC.

lawson4
 
Excuse my ignorance of your proposed motion, but don't you first really need to find out whether the serial number appears in more than one place on your evidentiary Ruger Mk. I 22lr?

If another serial number appears elsewhere on a that model of Ruger, then the question of reasonable doubt is raised as to whether the pistol provides the scienter needed to meet the issue raised by the criminal statute.

After all, if legible serial numbers are mandated in order to assist the authorities in tracking a weapon, among other uses, and a legible serial number remains elsewhere on the weapon, even if not readily visible, your kid can claim "Yeah, the 'regular' serial number is buggered, but someone told me it was cool because there was another one on it somewhere."

And then that number better be elsewhere on the pistol for his sake.

It appears you're attacking mens rea a little early if the pistol still has a serial number elsewhere, anywhere, on that pistol. Is anyone really going to believe his denial that he only possessed the pistol for brief moments and really couldn't detect the buggered serial number in the dark because he didn't know where to look for it?

I guess stranger things have been believed. I'd scour every part of the Ruger first, looking for any unique identifying numbers on the frame, bolt, receiver, or barrel.

Then maybe, if some sort of traceable numbers are found, you'd only need some testimony from a local expert on what a b!tch the Ruger .22lr autoloaders are to disassemble and reassemble and it is highly probable that all of the parts are original to that pistol.
 
I just stripped my early Ruger MK 1 to check, and the only SN is on the outside of the barrel/receiver assembly just in front of the ejection port.

Glad I'm not on his jury, I'd feel bad about convicting a decent, law abiding gun owner who is misunderstood and was framed by the crowd he was running with.:)

Now I know that sounds like I'm a smart-a**, but ... It could easily be read as "gangbangers invade Lafayette with concealed pistol having obliterated serial numbers". Now I know everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and I know lawyers have to defend their clients, but it's not looking good from this end.

Every time we read about a cop or legally armed civilian shooting someone around here they roll out the family talking about how he had turned his life around, found Jesus, was just hanging with the wrong kind of people, etc.

It's a tough case and I don't envy you. But I did try to give some useful information before my rant.
 
El Tejon:

I had a case a few years ago where they arrested my guy in an apple orchard with a Smith revovler on him and said it was obliterated when in fact the number was on the butt of the pistol. I had a thread on it on THR.
Click to expand...


I remember. I posted on that thread. ;)

Over the weekend I'll see what I can come up with, if ANY handgun is O.K.
 
Legally they had no right to search you or the car . Suspicious activity , my ass,. SCOTUS says they need your permission to search either the car or anyone in it. A good attorney will have that case dismissed in a flash.It was a traffic violation, the vehicle wasn't stolen.It was an illegal search and seizure , plain and simple and any evidense obtained in that manner is inadmissable in a court of law.
 
Two comments:

1) Your guy doesn't sound particularly bright. I'm guessing that he either consented to the search or otherwise gave the officer some justification for the frisk. Talk to a lawyer.

2) I suspect that it doesn't matter if the SN is stamped elsewhere, so long as one number has been defaced. Talk to a lawyer.
 
2) I suspect that it doesn't matter if the SN is stamped elsewhere, so long as one number has been defaced. Talk to a lawyer.
Click to expand...
If you read carefully, I think you will find the OP is the defendant's lawyer.

I think the only SN that matters is the one on the receiver. If it were in more than one place, you might have some argument, but the law only requires it to be on the receiver IIRC.

Maybe the guy will be in a nice mood and give the kid a break, assuming you can convince him the kid deserves one. It would be a hard sell for me if I were in his shoes.
 
All of my CZ pistols have the S/N on the frame, slide and barrel. Even the P01, which had a design requirement for 100% parts interchangability between pistols (without fitting or adverse performance changes) has it.

I haven't read the letter of the law, but I suspect the frame itself is where the serial number needs to be, and anything else is just a "bonus" for which points are not rewarded.

Sounds like a messy case. I don't envy you if you're the defense attorney.

Steve
 
Are pictures you get from THR members going to be admissible? Playing devil's advocate, if I was OC, I'd object to them as hearsay.
 
Are pictures you get from THR members going to be admissible? Playing devil's advocate, if I was OC, I'd object to them as hearsay.
Click to expand...

Hopefully he's using this thread as research, and he'll purchase/photograph anything useful that comes of the pictures.

Steve
 
Dave, how would it be hearsay? If the goal of the photos is to show that there is no standard for placement of serial numbers, then any photos would work, yes? So El T can say, "my client was told that this particular number was fubar'd (for whatever reason) but there are other identifying marks on it, so it's okay." Thin, to be sure, but hey, it could be true.
 
I do not think I would take legal advice from someone who can't spell "evidense". Just kidding, I am a horrible speller myself but I could not resist.
 
Did the handgun have an obliterated serial number?

Maybe I missed something in your original post, but I don't see this fact mentioned. If it did have an obliterated serial number, trying to prove the cops just "missed it" in the dark is just plain dirty. On the other hand, if it did not have an obliterated serial number, that charge should have been dropped by the prosecutor...or at least tossed in the motions hearing.

Sounds like the cops have a solid case.
 
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