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5 shot 12 Gauge 00 Buck vs 30 Round AR15 for Home Defense

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The exact correlation of dB is not liner.

Table 3
Decibel (dB) basics
Change in dB Change in sound energy
3 dB increase Sound energy doubled
3 dB decrease Sound energy halved
10 dB increase Sound energy increased by factor of 10
10 dB decrease Sound energy decreased by factor of 10
20 dB increase Sound energy increased by factor of 100
20 dB decrease Sound energy decreased by factor of 100

A pistol round inside of a house pretty much put my hearing out to lunch for two days and this was only one shot. At least with multiple shots you can use sight instead with a light. Your hearing, without hearing protection inside a room will bet pretty much "shot".

I would be inclined to have a strobe light instead of a flashlight if it had an easily manageable on-off button so I could turn it on only upon a face to face meeting.
 
Tests at the optimum range in ballistic gel, Sheetrock and plywood would be very interesting. The FBI runs these tests on pistols but I haven't seen in for AR vs shotgun. Both would depend on the load. I suspect most ARs are loaded jacketed as that is the most available and cheapest.
 
Even with FMJ, 5.56 tends to tumble to the size, tear apart at the crimp cannelure, and fragment violently at around 6" of penetration. There are tests of it on ballistics gel available. I remember being impressed by Federal 55 grain .223 FMJ given its low price but surprisingly nasty terminal effects and low overpenetration risk.
Just because .223 is FMJ doesn't mean it will just punch directly through. Not all FMJ is the same.
 
Samari Jack said:
The exact correlation of dB is not liner.

Table 3
Decibel (dB) basics
Change in dB Change in sound energy
3 dB increase Sound energy doubled
3 dB decrease Sound energy halved
10 dB increase Sound energy increased by factor of 10
10 dB decrease Sound energy decreased by factor of 10
20 dB increase Sound energy increased by factor of 100
20 dB decrease Sound energy decreased by factor of 100

A pistol round inside of a house pretty much put my hearing out to lunch for two days and this was only one shot. At least with multiple shots you can use sight instead with a light. Your hearing, without hearing protection inside a room will bet pretty much "shot".

I would be inclined to have a strobe light instead of a flashlight if it had an easily manageable on-off button so I could turn it on only upon a face to face meeting.
Click to expand...

I also imagine the frequency of the rounds would have an impact. I'd think a shotgun will have a lower frequency and the rifle will have a higher "crack" to the sound.
 
If I was the only person who had access to my house then I would have less use for a light. As it stands now there are my parents in the house and my brother has access (although I generally know when they are coming and going). The main purpose of the light is to make sure only those people who need to get shot do. Because of this, night sights and a light are personal requirements for any defensive situation. If I am using a pistol, then I am also carrying a flashlight in my off hand (or weapon mounted).
Click to expand...

Since it won't die:

I personaly don't like weapon mounted lights for houseclearing. I'm not an LEo and not a "proffesional door kicker" so the only house I will ever be "clearing" is my own. A light is used to determine if the person who I'm "lighting up" is a family member, and as I try to avoid pointing loaded guns at my family members, a flashlight in the off hand is, IMHO, a much better choice.


As for over penetration, my wife and I live on the second floor of a two story brick house. There are several places where we can stand in the shadows and see anyone coming up the stairs, If we have to shoot, we will be shooting down.
Click to expand...

That's a good consideration. My situation is close (not a brick house, but a good position to shoot down a narrow staircase from cover - not concealment). In that specific situation, overpenetration is not an issue. Neither is the manuverability of a long gun. Shotgun, AR or even a M1A, FAL or AK could be used safely and effectively from that specific position.
 
Shotgun with birdshot! .223 = over penetration even tho it would probably carry through walls less than a 40 cal round due to the light weight of it. The birdshot won't even make it through two layers of sheetrock, but it will definately effect the threat's ability to hurt you! My two cents.
 
The birdshot won't even make it through two layers of sheetrock, but it will definately effect the threat's ability to hurt you! My two cents.
Click to expand...

So a load that can't penetrate an inch of powdered gypsum with paper backing is without question going to effect someone's ability to hurt you? Tell me more about this magical load... I mean I can open a door too fast and put a hole in drywall; but I'm not betting on my ability to stop a deadly threat with a doorknob.
 
cjwise5 said:
Shotgun with birdshot! .223 = over penetration even tho it would probably carry through walls less than a 40 cal round due to the light weight of it. The birdshot won't even make it through two layers of sheetrock, but it will definately effect the threat's ability to hurt you! My two cents.
Click to expand...

Ok, story time. I'm an ER doctor and have seen first hand someone shot with birdshot from a 12 gauge in a home defense situation.

Several years ago while in residency is was rotating on the trauma team and EMS brought in a guy who had tried to break into a house. Occupant had heard a window break and discovered our patient climbing in the window with one leg over the sill. He ordered the guy to "stop" and got a "F you" in return. Occupant then emptied a single shot 12 gauge load of bird shot into the guys chest, center mass, from the middle of the kitchen.

The crook fell back out the window, got up and ran down the street. Collapsed several houses down and remained there until EMS arrived. It took a few minutes for EMS to get to him of course, plus scene time, plus travel time to us at the hospital.

On arrival to the ER we get a patient that is awake, combative, pissed off, and has to have several people to help hold him down. Early 20s, good shape. We knock him out and put in chest tubes on both sides because both of his lungs had partially collapsed. He also gets put on the vent.

We scan his chest and he took almost the whole load of birdshot. A few pellets had penetrated almost to the back of his lungs but the vast majority stopped in the front 1/3 of his chest cavity. Most of those were just under the skin or barely past the ribs. There were a small number that passed all around the aorta but nothing penetrated any main structure.

After 6 weeks in the ICU he walked out of the hospital.

Thoughts: Dude was lucky. If any of those pellets had hit a major structure he wouldn't have made it to us. On the other hand he lived for 20-30 minutes with minimal care and had the power to fight us in the ER. Note: It was summertime and the guy was in a T-shirt when he got shot.

My personal feeling: a single anecdote doesn't make a case study. However, I know for a fact a man can get shot point blank with 12 gauge bird shot and still try to fight. If he had been wearing a thick jacket like a carhart or something similar his injuries would have been even less severe. I believe if he had been shot with some kind of buckshot he would not have made it to us alive.

Moral of the story: Birdshot is for the birds. Choose something better for home defense.
 
geologist....How can such a beautiful country have such ugly, stupid gun laws?
Click to expand...

A majority of Canadians are slightly left of centre and we have had many years of left of centre governments. This has led to many Canadians believing that the government will take care of them in all aspects of their lives, from cradle to grave.

This has led us down the road to where we are today where only the police, military and the criminals can CCW.
 
I have 3 shotguns, an AR-15, two pistols and over a dozen revolvers. I keep a 1911 and a shotgun for home defense.

In this scenario, I pick the 12 ga because:
1. Less likely to cause collateral injuries;
2. Using a full-penitrating round and accidentally hurting someone else is de facto criminal negligence in many jurisdictions and creates civil liability everywhere;
3. There are almost almost no documented cases where more than 5 rounds have been needed for home defense;
4. Reloading a shotgun (in the extremely rare chance you'd need to) is very fast (I keep extra rounds on the butt)
5. There is nothing better at one-shot stopping power than a shotgun.
 
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

For those of you who think anything that will stop someone will not penetrate completely through a house.

Everything except birdshot penetrated all 4 double drywall targets (4 walls of a normal house). The birdshot made it past one wall, so people in the next room are still getting splattered (although probably not life threatening, you would hate to put out a few eyes).....

Take a look at the 4th wall of the buckshot test. Do you see the spread?!?!?!

The closest thing that came to reducing penetration was the frangible 223 round, but i wouldn't want to get hit by one 4 walls away.

I keep a handgun for the house because of plenty of other reasons that fit my lifestyle better, but there is no way around the 'know your target and what's behind it' rule.
 
epijunkie67 said:
Ok, story time. I'm an ER doctor and have seen first hand someone shot with birdshot from a 12 gauge in a home defense situation.

Several years ago while in residency is was rotating on the trauma team and EMS brought in a guy who had tried to break into a house. Occupant had heard a window break and discovered our patient climbing in the window with one leg over the sill. He ordered the guy to "stop" and got a "F you" in return. Occupant then emptied a single shot 12 gauge load of bird shot into the guys chest, center mass, from the middle of the kitchen.

The crook fell back out the window, got up and ran down the street. Collapsed several houses down and remained there until EMS arrived. It took a few minutes for EMS to get to him of course, plus scene time, plus travel time to us at the hospital.

On arrival to the ER we get a patient that is awake, combative, pissed off, and has to have several people to help hold him down. Early 20s, good shape. We knock him out and put in chest tubes on both sides because both of his lungs had partially collapsed. He also gets put on the vent.

We scan his chest and he took almost the whole load of birdshot. A few pellets had penetrated almost to the back of his lungs but the vast majority stopped in the front 1/3 of his chest cavity. Most of those were just under the skin or barely past the ribs. There were a small number that passed all around the aorta but nothing penetrated any main structure.

After 6 weeks in the ICU he walked out of the hospital.

Thoughts: Dude was lucky. If any of those pellets had hit a major structure he wouldn't have made it to us. On the other hand he lived for 20-30 minutes with minimal care and had the power to fight us in the ER. Note: It was summertime and the guy was in a T-shirt when he got shot.

My personal feeling: a single anecdote doesn't make a case study. However, I know for a fact a man can get shot point blank with 12 gauge bird shot and still try to fight. If he had been wearing a thick jacket like a carhart or something similar his injuries would have been even less severe. I believe if he had been shot with some kind of buckshot he would not have made it to us alive.

Moral of the story: Birdshot is for the birds. Choose something better for home defense.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the story. I hope others take this to heart. If it won't penetrate drywall, how is it supposed to penetrate a badguy?
 
What are you more comfortable with?


Trying to scare someone isn't a valuable tactic when they have made the decision to break into someone's home while the homeowner is their.
 
I'll put my vote in for 12 ga for preference. I do not own either but it tight quarters like a house I want something reliable and with a punch. An AR is nice but I feel more comfortable with a shotgun. 00 buck or a quality HD round is something I would trust my life to end a conflict quickly. The AR I worry would take more than one shot. Also, I feel like most 12 ga could be used as a blunt force object if need be more so than the AR.
 
Shooting Times did an article a while back about this very subject. I believe it was their judgment to go with an AR loaded with frangible rounds. I will see if I can dig it up.
 
For close quarter devastation, a 12 gauge scattergun with a short barrel has no equal. I prefer #4 buck or #5 3" turkey loads with a modified or IC choke.
 
I will give the "Social shotgun" a two thumbs up also.

The pistol grip only gun is ok if you can handle it, with an 18-1/2 inch barrel, cylinder bore and number 6 shot is my choice for CQB.

I choose the #6 shot simply because at close range it makes a HUGE HOLE.
The pattern at 20 feet is about 12 inches or so depending on the particular round used.

Took a real long look at this back a couple years while looking for the best round to use a close range in Cowboy action.

Put up large cardboard at various ranges and shot at outlines the size of a Pepper popper.

The number 6 gave great coverage and good chances of getting a heavy hit.
I thought about this and it also will work just as well at "Close range" like a hallway for defense too.

At distances greater though, the buckshot comes right on up to be the best choice.

A blast at close range with number 6 will just do nasty things, but will LIKELY not penetrate outside the home.

I would not choose the AR for inside work myself (home defense)

I have one exception on that, and that is the 12.7mm Thunderboss that was an offshoot of the Thunder Sabre project.

50 caliber AR with a 7-1/2 inch barrel, a lazer forgrip and an Eotech Holosite.

My worry here is that its gonna go through the perp, through the walls and on down the street a long way.

This weapon was built as an entry gun and CQB.

One was released to a LE for use as a drug team weapon, the one pictured here is the prototype which I still have.

The unit pictured was later fitted with a non telestock as the tele units will not hold up to the recoil and they break. The Crimson trace lazer was added later also.

The one Boss gun was used in a drug bust within a few days of the LE receiving it.
The perp was kev'd up well and took one round to the center of the chest, he did not survive.

The vest held, the chest did not. The sterum was shattered and the heart stopped due to blunt force trama.

Shotgun is my choice.

Snowy
 

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I would go with the 12 guage for in the home defense. Hitting someone with buckshot or a slug will be likely to end the fight. I would pick the AR for anythreat outside the home since you can be more precise with your shot at greater distances.
 
Snowy Rivers said:
I choose the #6 shot simply because at close range it makes a HUGE HOLE.
The pattern at 20 feet is about 12 inches or so depending on the particular round used.
Click to expand...

A huge shallow hole. At half the 20' distance you mentioned, #7.5 shot will only penetrate about 6" of ballistic gelatin. With shot that light, something like a leather jacket turns into body armor. And something as simple as the person making a half turn means a round that would have been effective in stopping the bad guy is now no longer effective.

This link discusses the birdshot choice at some length and has some good info:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=181618&highlight=birdshot&page=2
 
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BR

I will not go into all the What if's but under some circumstances, I will agree with you 100%

I have seen what the 12 gauge will do at 15 feet with #6 being blasted into a water melon and other suitable items.

The melon just explodes.

Yessss a heavy leather jacket will likely slow down the pellets a lot, if not stop them.

This is probably not going to be a 1 shot stop type shooting either.

A perp taking a full load of number 6 is not likely going to be doing much for a few seconds anyway and you can use another blast if need be.

My worry is collateral damage, especially inside the home.

You dont't have to stress how good 00 or even 000 is, its a proven tool.

We have worked with #6 and #4 and these will work at close range to penetrate fairly well.

At greater distances, I agree 100%, far too light to be effective.

Respectfully

Snowy
 
There is another thing to take into account in all of this.

If the forensic evidence, or someone's testimony, should cast some doubt on the justification of some aspect of a shooting or indicate the possibility that excessive force may have been used, the outcome of the Grand Jury deliberations and/or of a trial could hinge upon the jurors' perception of the weapon used. Should that situation arise, the defender would be better off having used a shotgun, and preferably one without a pistol grip and/or tactical rails, etc, than any AR type weapon.

See this:


Dr. Glenn Meyer is "GEM", a member here.
 
Snowy Rivers said:
My worry is collateral damage, especially inside the home.

You dont't have to stress how good 00 or even 000 is, its a proven tool.

We have worked with #6 and #4 and these will work at close range to penetrate fairly well.
Click to expand...

I guess my question would be:

1. What kind of penentration do you define as "fairly well."
2. How close of a range do you see that kind of penetration?

It seems to me that the big issue with collateral damage is the balance between "What happens if I miss?" and "What happens if I hit?"

In order to limit collateral damage if you miss, you are basically choosing a round that is less likely to stop the threat if you hit. If you are going so far as to limit yourself to a round that won't penetrate two pieces of 1/2" powdered gypsum backed by paper should you miss, you are accepting some very serious limitations on what is going to happen if you hit.

My take on this has been that if I can make the hits, overpenetration is much less of a concern and that a firearm/ammunition combination that maximizes my ability to make hits and minimizes the number of rounds I need to fire is my best option. The rationale here is that while I can make a choice not to fire in a certain direction or with a certain background, I am unlikely to get that consideration from someone who warrants the use of lethal force. In that case, stopping that external threat as quickly as I can better addresses the safety issues to myself and others.

#6 shot has very serious limitations to its use as a defensive tool. I just want to make sure that people understand that. At the end of the day, training is the biggest way to minimize overpenetration problems.
 
Both platforms can be equally effective. It's not the gun that wins the fight, it's the man. The gun is just a tool. There is no correct answer to this question. Why? Because the correct answer lies with the shooter.

You should choose the weapon that YOU are most comfortable with and proficient with. Both the 5 shot 12 gauge and the AR will do the job. The question is, which one fits the shooter and his or her circumstances better.

All the posts about over penetration worries are really unfounded unless you envision a fight in your home that was scripted by John Woo for the sequel to The Replacement Killers. Lets be real here. Do you really, seriously believe that you are going to engage in a wild, spray and pray gun fight with multiple intruders inside your home? If so, I think maybe you should do a little research into some actual incidents. I bet you don't find hardly any that involved more then 3 or so shots fired. We're talking ranges in feet, not yards here.

It's the man not the tool, I would pick a few people on this forum that I know personally armed with a single shot youth 20 gauge to back me up in a fight over someone of unknown ability who is armed with the latest black rifle or the ultimate shotgun. The weapon is YOU, the firearm is just a tool. With the right training both choices here will do the job equally well. Without the right training it's not going to matter what you are armed with....

Jeff
 
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