5 shot 12 Gauge 00 Buck vs 30 Round AR15 for Home Defense

[JShirley]

I'm afraid I could never take firearms advice from someone who uses the nonsensical term "long range assault weapon", which is wrong at least 3 different ways.

Like Jeff says, use what you've got and can use well. I am, however, continually distressed at the apparently willful ignorance of folks who persist in believing that properly selected .223 penetrates more than useful defensive 12 gauge loads.

After looking at the effects of 00 buck, I no longer have the faith that a large bore shotgun is the magic broom most folks seem to assume.

John

 

[Snowy Rivers]

Ok I have chatted PM with another on this issue.

A while back I attended the autopsy of a guy that was shot in the chest and the head with a 12 gauge at 50 feet (approx) using 7-1/2 shot.

The guy was obviously dead, OOOOOOK

He suffered nasty wounds to his neck (Carotid was severed) and he bled out quickly plus lost conciousness quickly.

His face looked like 10 miles of bad road. There were multiple wounds that penetrated the cranial vault.

I did not stick around while the ME and staff removed the brain. I saw all I needed to see to convince me of the lethality of the 12 gauge.

Now we can beat this with what ifs all the way to death.

yeah, a heavy coat will probably stop 7-1/2 shot and some folks might survive a head shot MAYBE.

There have been cases where people have been shot in the head with a 44 magnum and lived to tell about it.

I dont have an iron clad answer here.

BUTTTTTTTTTTTT, after seeing that cadaver laying on the slab with its face pretty well rearranged, I will not argue with the #7-1/2 and especially the larger stuff.

That fellow that was shot withy the 7-1/2, IFFFFFFFFF he had not suffered the neck wounds was not going to put up any more fight as his eyes were gone missing too.

maybe we should choose to say, Yesssssss under the worst case scenario, where the bad guy is real lucky and the conditions were just right, that the small shot is not optimal.

The #000 or maybe # 4 would be better.

Seems that no matter what come across, there is always a lot of "what ifs" or maybes to thrash with here, ???????

certainly dont want to create hate and discontent here for sure.

Go take in an autopsy or two of some shooting victims and this will definately alter your perspective some.

During LFI days, the normal program was to have "Autopsy Videos" with lunch. No BS here.

Pizza takes on a slightly different apeal when your doing it with lunch. My first autopsy years ago, really took me back a long ways emossionally.

being in the business of teaching folks to shoot in defense has given me an appreciation for the time I spent in the autopsy room.

No I did not enjoy it, but it was an education.

best

Snowy

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, let's just point out another obvious problem with using a load that is stopped by two sheets of drywall for self-defense - everything in your house is now hard cover for YOUR shots. Unless your opponent was kind enough to break into your house with a birdshot loaded shotgun, that isn't true for him.

This actual story of a murder investigation related by John Farnam illustrates a lot of the issues with birdshot in defensive use. Note that despite the gruesome wound to the face caused by a load of high-brass #6 and the loss of his right eye, the murderer still kills his victim and drives 100 miles to seek medical care.

Had the murderer been struck in the same location by any round meeting the FBI minimum criteria, that fight would have been over right there. The problem here was the victim didn't have enough penetration to save his life. You can always limit penetration by not shooting if the background isn't good; but you can't make #6 shot act like buckshot on command.

Again for me, it comes down to training. Train with either platform (AR or 12ga) and both are more than capable. Training will help you discriminate targets in high stress situations and give you some tools for changing the angle of your shot quickly to get a better background. It will help you make hits instead of misses.

 

[Fred Fuller]

As is so often the case, not only is there not any "best"- there isn't even necessarily a "better." In almost any imaginable situation, either of the choices for a defensive weapon listed in the OP will do just fine, as will other choices as well. The big question with any choice of defensive tool is not 'will this tool do' - it's WILL THE SHOOTER DO?

Everyone always likes to debate the hardware (toolset), but no one much wants to talk about mindset and skillset. As I see it, S&T will be a howling success when we get a predominance of discussion here oriented around 'how should I approach this situation' and 'what standards to I need to train to,' and the 'what hardware is best' questions fade to a distant third.

You cannot buy a proper mental attitude packed in a cardboard box, nor can you purchase skill in a blister pack. And those are by far the more important factors where defensive shooting is concerned.

fwiw,

lpl

 

[ChCx2744]

I choose both, because I have both. In all honesty, I think I would grab the shotgun first before the rifle in most situations. I still trust the rifle fully for my HD purposes as well, though.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Shotgun for me as well, and if all else fails, my back up is an M-44 loaded with 203gr soft tips.

Even if I miss with the M-44, the fireball might be enough to scare them off. lol

 

[md7]

You should choose the weapon that YOU are most comfortable with and proficient with. Both the 5 shot 12 gauge and the AR will do the job. The question is, which one fits the shooter and his or her circumstances better.

^^^^^This. Shotgun for me. YMMV.

 

[Pizzagunner]

Why is this debate set up as a pump gun versus AR debate?

If the AR fans can have their M-4 carbines on either side of $1k, why can I not choose my slightly more than $1k M4 made by Benelli?

7+1+1 12ga. in a stone reliable semi-auto pistol gripped fighting shotgun makes me not long for an AR.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Why is this debate set up as a pump gun versus AR debate?

If the AR fans can have their M-4 carbines on either side of $1k, why can I not choose my slightly more than $1k M4 made by Benelli?

I must have missed that part of the debate. In fact the OP makes no mention of pump or semi-auto in the opening post. But, his talk about four more pulls of the trigger, actually sounds more like semi-autospeak, not that it really matters as the question is simply 5 shot 12 or 30 round AR. Personally, my shotgun is a Mossberg 930 SPX, which I haven't proven yet, therefore my choice, for now, is the AR.

 

[Pizzagunner]

I must have missed that part of the debate. In fact the OP makes no mention of pump or semi-auto in the opening post. But, his talk about four more pulls of the trigger, actually sounds more like semi-autospeak, not that it really matters as the question is simply 5 shot 12 or 30 round AR. Personally, my shotgun is a Mossberg 930 SPX, which I haven't proven yet, therefore my choice, for now, is the AR.

I was merely wondering. Not very many semi-auto shotguns I have ever heard of are purposely left at 4+1 for the SD/HD role. That brought to mind a short pump action shotgun, not just to me, but also to many other participants in this thread.

 

[Kleanbore]

Well, in 109 answers and five pages, this discussion has addressed penetration, magazine capacity, the sound of the shot, effectiveness, the issue of jury perception, and the fact that the choice of which tool to use is really of secondary importance.

That should do it.

For anything new on the subject, we can re-open--send me a PM