5 shot 12 Gauge 00 Buck vs 30 Round AR15 for Home Defense

[COLOSHOOTR]

Even FMJ .223/5.56 does not penetrate as far as you might expect. It starts to keyhole right away and the fact the ammo is very light means it dumps energy pretty quickly. I do recommend Federal Tactical .223 or Gold Dot .223 SP or HP ammo for any defense use though. Coming from a tactical perspective I'd stick with a handgun for HD. It's much faster to get up and easier to manuver in close quarters. A long gun takes training and practice to use in close quarters and sometimes you still don't have room to get it up and have to transition to a handgun anyway.

Black Toe Knives I think you need to read up on tactics with weapon lights and check out a little thing called the OODA loop. By the time you make a decision about shooting towards the light, then react you'll probably be dead. Remember the barrel and light are in line... All he has to do is make the decision to pull the trigger. You as the BG would have to comprehend the threat, decide how to react to that freaking bright light in your face and then react. Accurate shots while you are blinded by 200+ lumens of light are also pretty tough to do. There is a reason LEO's, Tac Teams and Special Forces use weapon lights. If a light was a disadvantage I don't think the SF and tac teams would use them.

 

[txgunsuscg]

62 gr FMJ coming out of my barrel blasted through a pine 2x4 (through the 4" part), and keyholed into a target 30 feet away. In a home defense scenario, that's a person at least one room away taking a hit.

As for the light subject, since it won't die, I agree with the poster above. The light can be a huge tactical asset. In low light conditions, pretty much all you can see is a person in your house. In most states, that person has to be a threat to you, you can't just shoot him cause he's there. The light allows you to ID the weapon/threat, and temporarily blind them while you begin engaging. The key is light discipline. You can't turn it on and just walk through the house, you move without light as much as possible and save it for when you need to ID and engage.

 

[atlp99]

If I was the only person who had access to my house then I would have less use for a light. As it stands now there are my parents in the house and my brother has access (although I generally know when they are coming and going). The main purpose of the light is to make sure only those people who need to get shot do. Because of this, night sights and a light are personal requirements for any defensive situation. If I am using a pistol, then I am also carrying a flashlight in my off hand (or weapon mounted).

So far over penetration goes, ALL self defense rounds will still be dangerous after passing through a wall, and most will go through multiple interior walls and still be dangerous.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It is really disappointing that given all the information there is out there about .223 and 12ga penetration in building materials that people still don't know that many .223 rounds penetrate less than pistol rounds or buckshot.

It is also disappointing to read people suggesting you don't need the ability to identify your target.

As for shotgun vs AR, it really comes down to what you are more proficient with. You can make good points either way; but at the end of the day both are more than capable if the person running them is.

 

[357mag.]

12ga and buck-shot for me,reasons 1:I do not own an AR type rifle (and don't want one)2:I do not like/trust the 223/5.56mm round for anything bigger than coyote 3:I own many shotguns and have a good supply of differnt size buckshot.4:I have seen what a load of buck does to deer and coyote,and trust it to do the same to humans.

 

[Erik]

AR, as I am not limited to the shotgun.

 

[Boberama]

12 gauge. Most rounds I could have in an AR is 10, and that's through a barely legal loophole, otherwise 5.

 

[epijunkie67]

Later this year the complaint about low ammo supply in the 12 gauge might get a little harder to make.

14 rounds.

 

[03Shadowbob]

Shotgun for me for 2 main reasons. First, my kids rooms are on the other side of the house and I worry about over penetration. Secondly, the pump shotgun is possibly the easiest gun for my wife and daughter to manipulate (besides one of my revolvers) and covers the only entrance to our safe room quite nicely, meaning someone can't get in that room without getting hit by some lead.

 

[smince]

take careful aim though your scope in the dark

No scope for me, thanks.

Either irons or an RDS.

 

[sansone]

yes the 12ga is better home defense(IMO).. and yes, switch to #4 for your load

 

[Roughneck08]

Wow, not one to criticize, but racking your shotgun in attempt to frighten the attacker/invader is not a wise opinion. Letting him know your whereabouts? You should already have a round chambered in your shotgun. A determined attacker might not be too afraid of the sound of a shotgun being racked. For all he knows you're bluffing. A crazed and drug induced attacker probably isn't afraid or can hear a shotgun being racked. Not wise to offer that here.

 

[Rexster]

We have both. For static defense of a fixed point, well, one shotgun shell sends a large load of lead. If moving about within the house, the AR15 is handier to maneuver. Moreover, my AR15 has an Aimpoint Micro T-1, and a couple of light mounting points.

I do NOT ever, EVER want to again face multiple opponents while prone, on my belly, with a pump gun! Been there, done that! I am grateful they did not start shooting! (They had shot it out with narc officers minutes before.) A pump shotgun gets really clumsy once off one's feet, and a shotgun's recoil can be brutal when my torso cannot give a bit with recoil.

If one hand has to let go of the weapon for a moment, and do something else, a lighter-barreled AR15 is more user-friendly at that moment.

 

[Rexster]

As for ease of manipulation/manual of arms, I have seen far stronger guys than me short-stroke pump guns when the stress level goes up a bit.

 

[macadore]

For me it's a matter of getting off the first shot, and maybe the second and third, with a short, light, fast AR or not getting off the first shot with a long, heavy, cumbersome, slow shotgun. An AR or AK pistole with a red dot and a light would be a better choice. Try turning around in a hallway with a shotgun. Then try it with a pistole.

Before someone mentions barricading yourself in a safe room, intruders don't always give you the option of choosing where to fight. In any case, I don't intend to cower in the bedroom waiting for someone to find me and shoot me. I know my house better than an intruder does. I know where the light switches are, where the furniture is, where the bookcases I can hide behind are, and numerous other aspects that give me the advantage. I intend to position myself at choke points and wait for the intruder to give me a shot I can't miss.

As for over penetration, my wife and I live on the second floor of a two story brick house. There are several places where we can stand in the shadows and see anyone coming up the stairs, If we have to shoot, we will be shooting down.

 

[03Shadowbob]

Roughneck,
I agree with you 100%. My duty is not to warn or scare away someone who is breaking into my house or threatening us. I will take every advantage given to me and prefer not to give a BG one at all. I'm OK with all the BG hearing is BOOM.
I keep mine loaded with one in the chamber and the safety on. The safety is very quiet.

 

[wishin]

My bedroom backup is a 12 Ga. with 00 and that's backed up by an AR 6.8mm with a 20 round mag loaded. No kids around.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Wow, not one to criticize, but racking your shotgun in attempt to frighten the attacker/invader is not a wise opinion. Letting him know your whereabouts? You should already have a round chambered in your shotgun. A determined attacker might not be too afraid of the sound of a shotgun being racked. For all he knows you're bluffing. A crazed and drug induced attacker probably isn't afraid or can hear a shotgun being racked. Not wise to offer that here.

I've got to say hearing a shotgun rack in the dark would scare the crap out of me and I would be leaving. I don't like having a round chambered in a gun left laying around. In something like an AR with a free floating fire pin I like it a lot less. So either way the sound of chambering a round is going to happen. At least with a shotgun its a clear message.

I think either is a good choice. Intellectually I think the AR is a better choice. I've thought seriously about switching out to the AR. I shoot it a lot more, I carried one for twenty years, I just have not been able to make the switch.

 

[BP Hunter]

My Remington 870 12 gauge pump shotgun. It is always near me at night. First round is #4 shot followed by 00 buck if the guy doesn't decide to go down. I have an AR, but I feel that I am more proficient with my shotgun.

 

[ExtremeGunCare]

Which one would you use and why. I chose the 12 Gauge because it released more lead faster. I can send 9 .30 cal. bullets down a hall with one trigger pull. I can follow up with 45 more rounds in four more trigger pulls.

I am thinking about switch to Number 4 Buckshot because 41 rds are better than 9. This will increase my bullet count to 204 rds verses 54 rounds.

Any thoughts on size of Buckshot?

Hello,

You are asking a comparison of a 12 ga Shotgun vs AR15 for Home Defense. To answer your question, 12 ga hands down. Try any of the three slug shot cartridges are very devastating.

Could there be another option? I think any .40 or .45 cal pistol would be a better option, in my opinion. If the goal is to have a "Home Defense" weapon, then I think a pistol would be a better option than two long gun options.

I believe it is easier to take a corner and fire a pistol than shouldering a shotgun/rifle. Take a look at what and where you will be utilizing the weapon. Move through the space as if you were "in the moment" of interaction. You will notice a pistol will fit your needs a lot better than shotgun/rifle.

Then analyze penetration points. The "what if" if you shoot through a wall, where will that bullet be traveling through? Could it pass into another room, maybe its your child room. What happens if you miss in a certain position, where will that ending shot land? If you are in an apartment complex, I sure don't want to have bullets entering my neighbors apartment. If you live in a house, how close is your house to the next one? Is that house in line of fire? An AR15 can easily go through a few walls...

I must admit you make it seems like you are more interested in wanting to toss more lead down range than anything. A .357 has been a long staple for many Home Defense Consumers. I would say don't concentrate on the idea of how much lead you can throw down range than accurate pin point stopping power.

Finally, I think if you do choose a .40 or .45, every other bullet should be a hollow point and full metal jacket. You start with the hollow point and then full metal jacket. Here is the reason behind this thought. You should be in clear view of whom you are about to shoot and if you do fire I think a hollow point is great stopping power. If you miss and they duck around a corner, a full metal jacket should have enough umph to possibly penetrate through that corner.

So if your goal is "Home Defense", please reconsider the two options you gave and maybe decide on a third.

Good Shooting,

Jason Lumetta
ExtremeGunCare

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If you are in an apartment complex, I sure don't want to have bullets entering my neighbors apartment. If you live in a house, how close is your house to the next one? Is that house in line of fire? An AR15 can easily go through a few walls...

I think you raise some good points on the importance of planning; but the problem is that both handguns and most shot suitable for 100-200lb mammals will also penetrate multiple interior walls without much problem. In many cases, they penetrate more than .223 SP or HP loads because they have more momentum and do not fragment as easily as small, fast moving .223 rounds.

Finally, I think if you do choose a .40 or .45, every other bullet should be a hollow point and full metal jacket. You start with the hollow point and then full metal jacket. Here is the reason behind this thought. You should be in clear view of whom you are about to shoot and if you do fire I think a hollow point is great stopping power. If you miss and they duck around a corner, a full metal jacket should have enough umph to possibly penetrate through that corner.

Most modern hollowpoints will have no trouble penetrating the corner of an interior wall. Even specialty reduced penetration handgun ammo will penetrate interior walls with enough energy to be lethal.

I think your general point regarding planning is the key aspect of home defense. Drywall is not a serious barrier - anything that meets the recommended FBI criteria for self-defense ammunition is going to penetrate multiple interior walls. I think often people do not understand how capable firearms can be in penetrating interior walls. There really is no "safe" firearm that won't penetrate interior walls but will stop a bad guy like a thunderclap. Understanding this is an important part of the planning process.

 

[brandon_mcg]

i went with the shotgun route. and if the round count bothers you, you can buy and install a tube extension fairly easily to add more capacity to that 5 round 12 gauge.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

For the shotgun, I've seen a study somewhere that says No 4 is the best for defense, but I can't remember where I saw it.

Latest I've read say that #1 buck is best for HD, followed by 00, both in 2 3/4" 12 ga. #4 buck comes in around 3rd or 4th place. More than likely, any of these would serve you well.

 

[Girodin]

I cannot get over how many over penetration comments there are on this thread. Are people willfully ignorant on this issue. Seriously? This seems to be something that some people either insist on opining about despite clearly lacking knowledge or willfully ignoring the facts.

5.56 with proper bullet selection penetrates/over penetrates through walls, people, etc less than 00 buck.

There is so much ignorance, on so many topics, in this thread I cannot even handle addressing most of it right now.

 

[The Undertaker]

Mossberg 590 loaded with #4 buckshot for me. Nine rounds is enough for most situations, I think. Plus, I carry at home, a standard USP40 in that case.