took a sawzall to a rsc today

Well yea using a power tool like a Sawzall is a no brainer.
And anyone with sense recognizes this.
With enough blades it will also get you inside a multi thousand dollar TL rated safe.
But post #23 is far more accurate with home burglaries.
That rigid job box that Sleazyrider referred to in post 23 is only 16 gauge steel.
I worked at a commercial building a few years back where some thieves broke into the building during a big buildout and went after that same type of jobbox with a sledge hammer and did not get in.
The whole point of all of this is that in nine out of ten residential settings a decent gun safe will repel most burglaries.
However if they know what they are coming for and are prepared they win and you lose.
Lock your power tools away.
Simple as that.

I used to sell Liberty safes.

If I were to buy one of my own I would look for an old time one from a Jewelry store or Pawn Shop that have asbestos insulation so they have REAL fire protection and they are made from thicker steel and have beefier locks. Supposedly they are easier to crack but at least you have way better of everything else.

Liberty safes and all other safes that are marketed as "gun safes" are little more than a great way to separate people from their money. Liberty also makes commercial safes which is what you should buy everytime even though they are smaller.

Hello friends and neighbors // Keep the padded longgun separators.

My buddies made a great handgun rack. Just screw them into a shelf, 4" - 6" apart, one all the way back.
Longer barrels grip down, shorter barrels grip up.

This left room, at the front of the shelf, for the grips from longer handguns or a couple of boxed HGs in front of the shorter barreled (grip up) HGs.

I use an 18volt portable SA for work and they truly amaze first timers.
I doubt you even changed to a new blade for that job.

The RSCs are a good part of a layered defense for the money but only one part.

I sure would like to hear Liberty's take on this, wouldn't you?

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Why? They would probably ask you "Didn't you know what you were buying?" A little bit of research is all it would take for a person to pass on buying this particular make and model.

It's great that you started this thread to show the uneducated what can be done. But, to confront Liberty about it is pointless.

Nobody is confronting them. I am simply extending to them the courtesy of responding to questions regarding their products.

HELLO
it's called a Residental Security Container
Not a SAFE
it's not rated as a safe...
some are MUCH better than others, and guess what, they AREN'T the most expensive, they cost alot, but there are thin, crappy construction, boxes with nice paintjobs of deers and stuff and VERY expensive NAMES, but hey, who need a good safe, or decent RSC when you can pay through the nose for a Paintjob and Name.

It's about time ...

Underwriters Laboratory Burglary Testing Classifications:

U.L. Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.
TL-15 – Safes given a U.L. TL-15 rating have all passed standardized tests defined in UL Standard 687 using the same tools and usually the same group of testing engineers. Construction Requirements:U.L. listed Group II, 1 or 1R combination lock.
750 lbs. minimum or comes with instructions for anchoring in a larger safe, concrete blocks or on the premises where used
Body walls of material equivalent to at least 1″ open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I. Walls fastened in a manner equivalent to continuous 1/4″ penetration weld of open hearth steel with minimum tensile
Strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
One hole 1/4″ or less, to accommodate electrical conductors arranged to have no direct view of the door or locking mechanism.
The label means that the safe successfully resisted entry (i.e. opening the door or making a 6″ square opening entirely through the door or front face) for a NET working time of 15 minutes using “…common hand tools, drills, punches hammers, and pressure applying devices.” Net working time means simply “when the tool comes off the safe the clock stops.” There are more than fifty different types of attacks that can be used to gain entrance into the safe. Usually they will try only 2 or 3 based on what they know about the product, and they know a lot.
TL-30 – Construction requirements are identical to the TL-15 above. Tests are essentially the same as the TL-15 tests except for the net working time. Testers are allowed 30 minutes and a few more tools (abrasive cutting wheels and power saws) to help them gain entrance. The label signifies the testers were unable to open the door or make a 6″ square opening entirely through the door or front face within 30 minutes. Keep in mind these engineers have the manufacturing blue prints and can disassemble the safe being tested before the test begins to see how it works.

TL-30 x 6 – The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.

I sure would like to hear Liberty's take on this, wouldn't you?

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Why? Do you really need a safe manufacturer to tell you how tough 12 gauge steel is? People tend to think that once that 12 gauge steel is shaped like a safe, that it all of a sudden becomes a formidable barrier.

Preferably, they will become a member and join the discussion.

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I wouldn't hold my breath, although it would provide me with hours and hours of entertainment.

to the experts on the board, is there a real safe out there that could withstand this approach for more than 10 - 15 minutes? It'd have to have some steel quite a bit thicker than 1/8 inch... Probably 1/4 would slow me down a bit, but I stll think I could get a hole in a safe that thck large enough to empty it in 15-20 min.

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Absolutely. A safe with a TL-15 burglary rating will keep a pro out for at least 15 minutes. Most amateurs wouldn't stand a chance. A C rate safe (1/2" body, 1" door)would hold up pretty well against common hand tools, and a B rate (1/4" body, 1/2" door)will put up a decent fight.

A safe will defend against most "smash-and-grab," opportunistic burglaries (e.g., the crackhead needing his next fix), but very few will stand up to more determined attacks with power tools.

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So will a closet with a dead bolt on the door. What I don't understand is why people spend thousands of dollars on a safe when a $20 dead bolt will achieve the same desired results.

I suppose the truth of the matter is that because it looks like a safe, and the manufacturers tell you tall tales about their safes, that consumers actually believe they are buying a safe.

With enough blades it will also get you inside a multi thousand dollar TL rated safe.

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This is true. You would need an awful lot of blades, and some serious time on your side.

I would look for an old time one from a Jewelry store or Pawn Shop that have asbestos insulation so they have REAL fire protection and they are made from thicker steel and have beefier locks. Supposedly they are easier to crack but at least you have way better of everything else.

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Most old safes do not have asbestos, although some do.

Your best course of action is to determine your needs, then shop for a safe that will meet those expectations. Although there are some antique safes that offer very good protection, they are generally not as secure as more modern day units.

The information listed above is great, although it can be confusing. Essentially, UL test safes, at worst case scenarios, for minimum entry times. If you need true burglary protection, you need a UL rated unit. Of course there are also plenty of well built safes with no UL ratings. This is why it's important to speak with somebody who's really in the safe business when shopping. We are able to point you towards what you should be looking at instead of just making a guess.

Liberty also makes commercial safes which is what you should buy everytime even though they are smaller.

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They do not manufacturer anything commercial. They do import some inexpensive asian safes that are entry level commercial, and put their name on the door.

You don't need a sawzall, you can open it like a can of tuna in a few minutes with a fire ax

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Okay, I put the fire axe IN the safe.

Seriously, these safe threads devolve into, "My safe is better than your safe."
You know what? If you want a better safe, buy one for $10,000.
While you're saving your pennies, where are your guns? In the wooden desk drawer?
I rest my case.

True...Quite true.
The whole idea of a decent gun safe or RSC if you will to those that prefer that term is to keep people out via steel and bolts.
And since the overall majority of home burglaries are not carried out with sledgehammers,sawzalls,concrete saws,five foot pry bars,etc. most times they will.
And the heavier duty the gun safe or again RSC that's well placed and bolted down the better the odds.
Until of course Meth Head Team Six arrives with the right tools.....That is of course unless they have already pawned them for their next dope refill.

Looks like the folks at UL needed only a hammer and a screwdriver, according to Alabdj's website:

"RSC: Residential Security Container. The minimum rating which should be used to protect assets from theft. This rating is usually not accepted for business use.
Ability to withstand 5 full minutes of rigorous prying, punching, chiseling, and tampering attacks by UL technicians with a hammer and screwdriver."

If we wait around long enough, I'll bet somebody will come along who can do it in 3 minutes with a Swiss Army knife.

One minute, 43 seconds ...

Check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M

Then again, even with a good door, you'd have to spend a lot re-inforcing the walls to get the same level of "protection" as even the cheapest rsc.

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I think that the point is that most smash-n-grab types won't even both to try - they will encounter the locked door as an obstacle and move along. They're looking to ransack for easily portable and easily sold/traded items, and they're looking to get in/out with a minimum of fuss.

I know of two folk that have been recently burglared. The first, a friend of my wife, had her place (a nice middle-class neighborhood in Carrollton, TX) burglared during the day. The burglars kicked in the front door, went to the master bedroom, and proceeded to ransack the dressers, nightstands, and bathroom. They took costume jewelry, prescription meds, and small, easily portable items of modest value. They made no effort to get into the locked cedar chest or other similar enclosures. They left the large TVs and even left the game console.

In the second incident, a cowworker had his house burglared during the daytime in a modest neighborhood in Garland, TX. They kicked in the back door, went to the master bedroom, and ransacked the dressers, nightstands and bathroom. They took his porn, his prescription meds, his game console (but not the TV) and his mad money stash in the nightstand. They made no effort to take more than could be easily found in a purposed search and that could fit into a pillowcase.

If nothing else, these two incidents point to a similar MO - smash in, go to where folk are most likely to hide their smallest and most valuable things, and take only those things that can be carried away and have valid street value within a specific demographic. Given this - yes, a closet or similar with a outward opening door and a deadbolt or similar would likely prove as adequate a theft deterrent as would an RSC.

Oh, and in both cases the burglars searched every room for computers but did not take them - they draped blankets over them. In other words, they have been doing this long enough to worry about web cams catching them in the act.

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ETA - lining a closet in plywood goes a long way towards stopping folk from kicking their way in. Picking an interior closet, preferably one that backs up against an interior dead space with plumbing or similar, is even mo' better.

What Rbernie described is very common.
On the other hand the three times my home was burglarized they took reasonably heavy and bulky items such as T.V.,VCR,rifles and shotguns(pre safe or RSC days)knives,stereo equipment including some very large JBL stereo speakers,money,etc.
They even took the time to pry open a locked two drawer file cabinet and a Sentry 1100 fire chest that had old tax returns in it.
Every drawer and closet was ransacked.
How long were these guys in my house?
Too long really but probably no more than 5-7 minutes.
The last time this happened a neighbor saw two guys leave in a truck.
Two work faster than one.
So my conclusion is it is likely that if they drive to your home or are dropped off by a vehicle they will comb your place pretty thoroughly.
If on foot they nail the master bedroom for the small but reasonably expensive things such as money,jewelery,handguns,etc.
That's my take on this.

Good point, and precisely the reason I leave "decoys" throughout my house---costume jewelry in the dresser drawer, a dummy non-firing shotgun in the closet, a functional 1911 non-firing replica with the look and feel of the real McCoy in my nightstand drawer, and a few cheapo knives here and there. I don't believe thieves on the go have time to be discriminating.

a1 - I respect your opinion alot, but I have to disagree about the closet and deadbolt. That can be opened with no tools vs requiring tools ( unless you're using steel frames and solid doors). Then again, even with a good door, you'd have to spend a lot re-inforcing the walls to get the same level of "protection" as even the cheapest rsc. I've seen too many drunks put a hand through a standard construction wall.

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As far as keeping kids out, a simple deadbolt will do the trick.

For keeping bad guys out, rbernie has it covered above. You could reinforce a closet to give you a decent level of protection that would still run less than an inexpensive gun safe.

The biggest benefit is that it doesn't scream "valuables". A locked closet door is just a locked closet door. A locked safe is full of valuables, even safes that are empty. If it's a safe, somebody "knows" there's a million dollars in it. This may make it a target for attack, or it may make you a target if the bad guys decide to come back later because they saw it the first time they were there.

The difference between a reinforced closet an an inexpenive gun safe is usually just emotional. You feel that the "safe" is a safe because it looks like one, even though the closet can give you the same level of protection.

Looks like the folks at UL needed only a hammer and a screwdriver, according to Alabdj's website:

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The UL's theory is that somebody attacking a safe in a home will only be using tools that they carry with them to break into homes. The hammer has to be less than 3 pounds, and under 18" in length. The prying device has to be less than 18" in length. The safe has to withstand 5 minutes of abuse without opening.

If you listen to the safe manufacturers that build these safes, they would lead you to believe that they are using sledge hammers, grinders, and cutting torches. Misleading consumers is the name of the game when it comes to gun safe manufacturers.

take only those things that have valid street value within a specific demographic.

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I'll watch for you on "Tap Dancing With The Stars."

I thought this was pretty cool from Browning until I saw the $3000.00 price tag!

What you said makes a lot of sense, a1abdj, and I appreciate the post. I anticipate building a house in the next several years, and this time I'll plan accordingly, perhaps with a concrete-poured room in the basement that is integral to the foundation. Or possible a "hidden room" with reinforced walls and appropriate access door.

What you said makes a lot of sense, a1abdj, and I appreciate the post. I anticipate building a house in the next several years, and this time I'll plan accordingly, perhaps with a concrete-poured room in the basement that is integral to the foundation. Or possible a "hidden room" with reinforced walls and appropriate access door.

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More people should do this. It is fairly inexpensive to add the additional walls and concrete during the construction process. You can also use the room as a storm shelter, which in some cases, has .gov money available.

Since this issue of fortifying a closet has come up lets us consider these things too.
One, even if you go inside the existing closet and measure precisely the dimensions and cut 3/4 inch plywood to fit and deep screw that into the studs that's fairly cheap enough.
But once you add a reasonably made metal security door AND metal frame you have to then use a better than average deadbolt lock and that pretty much excludes a Quickset or Schlage(although I like Schlage much more) to prevent the average hoodlum from bumping your deadbolt so you step up to a very decent Medeco deadbolt lock.
Although someone who knows there business can bump the Medeco,it most likely wont be Cecil Meth.
Then we go up into the addick to put a large panel of 3/4 inch plywood over the rafters that would expose the top of the closet.
After all of this is done,that is if you dont have to hire a contractor to do this work, it still will not be so cheap.
Price it people.
Unless you are good at this kind of work you will be out several hundreds of dollars that in all likely hood would have been easier to just go out and buy a stinking Chicom 12 gauge gun safe and just bolt it down.
The difference here is they are (maybe) not as likely to strong arm a locked closet as the screaming image of a safe.