took a sawzall to a rsc today

[scythefwd]

ok, I got to take a sawzall to a liberty "safe" today. It is the smallest centurion they make. I was just idening the hinge cutouts a hair to assist in putting the door back on... Don't ask.

anyways, my hitachi 13 amp sawzall went through it like butter. I'm pretty sure I could cut it in half in less than the four minutes needed to pry it open.

to the experts on the board, is there a real safe out there that could withstand this approach for more than 10 - 15 minutes? It'd have to have some steel quite a bit thicker than 1/8 inch... Probably 1/4 would slow me down a bit, but I stll think I could get a hole in a safe that thck large enough to empty it in 15-20 min.

 

[Dulvarian]

Safes are like locks. They keep honest people honest. I think you proved your own point.

 

[Kendal Black]

I'm not an expert, I don't play one on TV and I detest Holiday Inn Express. I stayed in one, once.

That said, all that any anti-procurement device buys you is time.

Even Fort Knox has guards. (I mean the fort, not the safe by that name.)

 

[lobo9er]

would you put up some pictures? It would be interesting to see.

 

[scythefwd]

lob - pics wouldn't show what I did too well. On the inside ledge of the body of the safe, there are two square notches for the hinges. I just made the notches taller. Maybe two-three inches vertically, 1/2 inch horizontal cuts x2. Each cut took about 5-10 seconds, and I could have gone much faster.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Um
yeah, the are rated at least a T rating by UL, and that means they will cost more than some tin shoe box

 

[Six]

Ping member a1abdj who works in the industry to get his thoughts.

 

[SleazyRider]

lob - pics wouldn't show what I did too well. On the inside ledge of the body of the safe, there are two square notches for the hinges. I just made the notches taller. Maybe two-three inches vertically, 1/2 inch horizontal cuts x2. Each cut took about 5-10 seconds, and I could have gone much faster.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you had access to the interior of the safe to begin with; in other words, the safe was already open by using the combination lock. Can we assume that access from the exterior of a locked and bolted safe would be just as easy?

 

[scythefwd]

sleazy - correct. The door was off. I made the cuts in order to ease it being back on. I guarantee it would be just as easy from the outside.... All I need is access to a side or front. It's pretty easy create a slot in a material with a sawzall. It'd take time to get through bolts, but the casing is easy. Pretty sure anything under 2k would be easy. With an oxy torch, there'd be damage to the contents... But I'd be in much faster.
Shadow, I knew it was a tin box when I bought it. A deterrant to a casual thief. I'm wondering how thick a 30 minute safe is.

 

[scythefwd]

to be further informative, if I have access to a corner, I can have the top off in a couple of minutes.

the onle way to protect something like it would to be encase it in concrete except for the door. Bolting it just keeps me from tipping it, not cutting my way in. I don't have the extra 400 to buy a second to film myself cutting my way into it.

 

[SleazyRider]

I'm thinkin' these safes get their fire rating from many layers of sheetrock in the walls, which accounts for their weight as well. And, yes, I always considered mine a deterrent to the "casual" thief: perhaps a teenager whose goal is to be in and out in under 20 minutes. If the Oceans Eleven gang breaks into the house, I might as well leave the safe open and avoid the damage.

 

[longhair75]

Given enough time, it is possible to cut into anything.

 

[scythefwd]

longhair - agreed. I posted so that the people, who like me before I got educated here, think their safes are just that. I wanted to inform just how easy it is to cut one of these open ising common, inexpensive power tools. I bet a skil saw with a ceramic cutting blade would do just as well if not better.

there is a diference between easy and fast vs. Takes effort and uncommon household tools.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

A safe will defend against most "smash-and-grab," opportunistic burglaries (e.g., the crackhead needing his next fix), but very few will stand up to more determined attacks with power tools. Fortunately, the former is much more common. Locking your guns up in a safe is far preferable to leaving them lying around loose, is it not?

 

[hso]

That's why few gunsafes are actually safes and most gunsafes are actually Residential Security Containers (keeping amateurs honest).

As to the fireproofing materials, having helped build gas forges for blacksmith/knifesmith use I assure you that the dry wall or concrete like materials common in RSCs go into a gas forge. We use fire brick and ceramic fiber batting and can build a propane forge with a coffee can and ceramic fiber batting that won't melt.

 

[kentucky bucky]

99% of the break-ins around our area are "pillbilly" idiots looking for something to trade for a fix. They seldom , if ever, prepare properly to confront any obstacle and they just run through houses smashing and grabbing. This is what safes are for.

 

[Shadow 7D]

You don't need a sawzall, you can open it like a can of tuna in a few minutes with a fire ax

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I've been in construction a while now.... I've realized that a sawzall in the right/wrong hands is the key to nearly anything. (Thats why its called a saw-z-all)

The best you can do (Without spending a fortune) is try to control the environment to make the criminal waste time, make noise, and do what his work while being illuminated.

Gun lockers and light safes deter the smash & grab theif. If someone knows you, your schedule, & is brazen enough they'll get in. (My humble opinion)

 

[evan price]

Most burglaries are fast jobs intended to take things and get out before a response can be mounted. The RSC type gun-"SAFE" is not really a safe as you discovered. What it is intended for is to buy you time, time that a quick thief won't have to spend on opening your safe.
A determined burglar WILL take the time to open an RSC if they have it. Obviously if you have a gun collection you can't afford to lose you need a better safe, one that is actually a safe- such as a jeweler's safe. Even those can be breached with the right tools and more TIME. But they are heavy- over 1000 lbs often for a large type safe- and expensive, easily 10X the cost of a cheap RSC.

All a safe does is buy you time. There is no safe that is 'portable' that will prevent access indefinitely. Like most deterrents for burglary, all you ever buy is time. Alarms, locks, safes, etc just increases the time a burglary takes. Thieves hate to spend time unless the reward justifies the risk.

The vast majority of home burglaries will not get your guns if you use a decent RSC with a good lock and bars, mount it securely to the structure of the home in a hard to access are so it can't just be transported away on a hand truck, and you LOCK the door fully instead of leaving it on day lock.

 

[CZguy]

and you LOCK the door fully instead of leaving it on day lock.

What's a day lock?

 

[scythefwd]

shadow - how many peoplw readily have a fire ax in their house? A sawzall is something a burgler can and will find in a lot of homes.... No need to bring one with. My point is about tools commonly found in the home. Same with a 4 ft. Pry bar. Yes, I could get the door off quickest with a good ax, but I suspect halving the thing, or just cutting the hinges with a sawzall would take marginally more time (im talking 2-4 minutes from start to full access) and markedly less effort.

ohio - I've actually torn down a shed built to housing standards ( like a house, and sturdier than most houses with laminated 2x4 corner posts) with this sawzall and a 12lb sledge. I've cut a lot of cable trough, just not much thicker with a sawsall.

 

[SleazyRider]

An open letter to Liberty Safes ...

I sure would like to hear Liberty's take on this, wouldn't you? So I took the liberty (thank you for recognizing the clever pun) to write them a quick note offering them an opportunity to respond:

"Dear Friends,

I'm a member of the High Road, a website/forum devoted to responsible gun ownership. A question was raised a few days ago regarding the effectiveness of your Centurion line of safes, of which you should be aware. You can view the discussion here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7326677.

As a satisfied own of a Liberty Fatboy safe, I'd appreciate your taking the time to review the thread and respond. I'd be happy to post your response or, alternatively, you can join the forum and respond directly. Thank you for your time and consideration!"

If and when I receive a response, I will post it immediately. Preferably, they will become a member and join the discussion.

 

[SleazyRider]

By the way, if and when somebody breaks into your house, it is like being raped. It's a sickening feeling when the safety and security of your castle has been violated, even if nobody's been physically harmed.

When it happened to me several years ago, I had my guns stored in a RIDGID job box, that is to say, a large steel tool box from which I removed the casters. These boxes are readily available at Home Despot. These boxes are locked with two Master padlocks arranged in such a way that the lock is inaccessible to bolt cutters. The locks, of course, present no challenge to even an amateur lockpick; in fact, I took up this hobby myself and became quite proficient at it in very short order---and I'm a slow study.

But despite their earnest attempts with a prybar, the thieves couldn't break into the box in the amount of time they were willing to spend inside my home. Sure, if they had the manpower, they could have hoisted it up the basement stairs, or taken a Sawzall to it, or even picked the locks; but this doesn't seem to be the modus operandi of your typical residential thief. I still use my RIDGID box for the overflow guns that don't fit in my Fatboy.

I look at my safe as but one part of an overall security plan, including an alarm system with warning signs, a recording security camera, ample lighting, and alert neighbors. I do not consider my dog part of this plan, as she warmly welcomes all parties despite their intentions.

 

[scythefwd]

Sleazy - Liberty fully recognizes this, the centurion, is a RSC and not a serious safe. If I remember right, they put it in the manual even.

I understand that smash and grab is what these are preventing, as well as unwanted access by little kids. I have worked with your rigid boxes as well... they're sturdy but wouldn't hold up any better to power tools....

My power tools are right there out in the open, so to speak. I have a large tool chest openly visible so the idea is right there. All it takes is a smarter than average thief, or someone of average intelligence to get into my "safe". Those same people are smart enough to get past my 3 dogs.... but it'll stop a teenager that doesn't want to be caught in the house, which was my main reason for getting the safe (and my daughter was on the way).

 

[SleazyRider]

You might say I've "got a dog in this race" as I'm currently negotiating the purchase of a pretty substantial gun collection, including several Parker Brothers shotguns. I may need more than a RSC if this comes to fruition.