If you shoot A .22 you got to see this!

Question.
I thought it was illegal to make "dum dum" bullets.
I may be wrong, but that is what I always thought.
Please enlighten me!!

I think you've got a bit of the Geneva Convention stuck in your head. There is a bit that says bullets designed specifically to cause undue suffering should not be used in war. That's why our guys use ball ammo in their pistols instead of HP and standard ball or match HP (non-expanding) in their rifles instead of soft point or ballistic tip.

For civilian use & consumption, the rules are much more relaxed. With the small (yet annoying) exception of pistol caliber armor piercing, very little is forbidden. Some states or localities might be more restrictive, but that's purely a localized bit of guano.

Dum Dum... odd term I haven't heard in a while. Honestly, I can't even place exactly what it is supposed to describe. Ahh... the miracles of Google... Here are two links that talk about and describe them.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/dumdum.htm
http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjust/200011/0076.html

I think you've got a bit of the Geneva Convention stuck in your head.

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You too.

The big thing the Geneva convention deals with is the humane treatment or enemy combatants, civilians and prisoners.

It's the Haque Accord that deals with what ammunition is and is not proper. Although the US is not a signator, it usually conforms to it.

So besides the Ruger MkII, anybody else try them in an autoloader?

Because it almost looks like one is making a semi-wadcutter out of the rounds, with a better bore-riding surface as a side benefit. I could see where a heavy-barrel 10/22 FrankenRuger might actually benefit from the altered round, assuming they'd feed ok.

I'll ask the same question over at RimfireCentral.com, and see what it kicks up.

Well, here goes an attempt at a picture of a target. The left side is from my Daughters Bearcat, top is un altered federal bulk, bottom is same ammo run through the .224 sizer and flatnosed. Right side is from my Mark II Target, same drill top and bottom. All groups fired offhand at 25 meters.

Sorry I didn't get to give a more thorough session, but I had the kids with me and it's pretty tough to concentrate in that e nvironment with your kids there even if they are well behaved. You just can't take any chances.

461 ....... try and visit that images deal of mine I mentioned .. the link is thru the ''Library'' link at top right of page.

I took the liberty of grabbing the target image and tweaking a bit .. converted to gray scale and lifted it somewhat . I'll try and post it for you here.

Not easy to tell major differences between one and the other .. I guess to really nail this would require some bench rest conditions. Plus I can imagine what you meant re the kids being there! Still ... pretty good effort.

How do these things work?You are doing this to loaded rimfire ammo right? Do you need a press or is it a hand tool deal?

Hand tool w/ a hammer... and a light touch.

Light touch?

So how many people have had a round go off while doing this?

P95Carry,
Thanks so much for your technical post. While not having gotten completely through it, so far you presented one of the clearest explanations on these subjects that I've read. Well done with thanks again.
Ross

Thanks P95Carry, your tweaks made the image much clearer. I did read your tutorial and plan to mess with it sometime soon, my wife bought me this great digital camera and I feel like an idiot because I can't figure out how to post anything. If work and life would leave me alone for a minute I think I'd be much better at a lot of stuff.

Darn you guys...another toy that just got placed on my short list.

Update info & pics

My ''combo'' set appeared in the mail today ... and tho you have seen pics from Paco's site ... thought I'd show one or two more. I have quickly tried it out (well, ya gotta ''play'' ain't ya!! ).

Here is the tool set .. the main body on left is double-ended . so you can choose whether to modify and so size - the bullet to .223 or .224. This end with the four punch marks is the .224. In fact, mic'ing up after use, it would seem they are nearer to .225.

The forming tools are, from left ... the slightly dishing tool, to produce something of a wad cutter nose. Then, the one to produce a hollow point and on the right is the version that makes a hollow point with center post.



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The rounds I experimented on were Fed HP's ... bulk box, and Eley solids.

They are shown next to each other for comparison, with Eley's being on left of each pair. From left ... the HP with center post, then the slightly dished wadcutter form and finally the HP.

As can be seen ... solids and HP's form much the same overall, tho the Fed HP's lend themselves to increasing the HP quite nicely, judging by appearance. These examples are not perfect ... it was just a quick trial.


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I have yet to find time for tests but will do so. The effort required to form these is quite modest . I placed the working set-up on a solid nylon block and used a hard rubber mallet. My main concern will be consistency of operation and I am considering making a small jig with a padded dropper weight. This would allow for a drop from a calibrated and marked level and thus same impact every time.

...a padded dropper weight. This would allow for a drop from a calibrated and marked level and thus same impact every time.

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Clever.

But I wonder if that level of repeatability is really necessary.

Actually, I take it back. I can see it being needed to prevent under forming the round. Hmm. I think I may have to pick one of these things up and fiddle around with it.

P95 I can't realy tell , but it apears the tool is rebated enough to not allow the rim to contact the tool at all is this correct? I am extreamly leary of haveing a round shoot out of what is esentual a short smooth bore with my hands over it . After haveing a 9mm round I seated to far blow on my Lyman hand press about five years ago , I am more carefull now .

Would it be possable for you to snap a pic with a round in the tool for us to see how deep it is seated in there?

Kodiak .....

t appears the tool is rebated enough to not allow the rim to contact the tool at all is this correct?

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Yes indeed ... it is rebated by about 1/16 ... and when in use the case rim is well clear of the holder.

Paco Kelly describes how he tried to induce a round to fire ..... and it was almost impossible until the whole deal was tilted to 10º on a very hard surface and really belted hard as could be .. and when it did fire, the case ruptured and blew out at the base .. this I guess was because it happened at the instant of the impact from above which contained things from blowing upwards ... it took least line of resistance.

I have no qualms at all using this ... it would take almost idiotic abuse to make it dangerous. Note, I used mine on a nylon block, and apploied quite light blows with a hard rubber mallet.

Come back a bit later and I will show close-ups to help make the pioint for you.

Kodiak ..... here we go. First go refresh on my first pic ... and take note .... there are actually two rebates . the obvious one, the inner .. is approx 1/4" deep ...... the outer is more subtle ..... and is the area machined down from outer dia, to the inner rebate .. which I think I'd approximate at 1/16".

So .. a case rim would have to go in about 3/8" before it contacts on its front face.

Now ... first pic .... this is a fresh unmodified round ..... pushed in as far as it will go safely .... it binds up and would need a lot of whacking to go further! You'll see, that the rim is still nowhere near the smallest inner diameter.






Now look at this second pic ..... here, I have placed the device on the ''whacking block''! And eased the round down to where it contacts the block, ready for modifying .. so this is if you like the ''operating'' position. It shows well just how well clear that rim is from anything.





I reckon about the only way you'd stand any chance of making a round go off, would be to purposely rest that round's base on something real sharp and pointy ... and whack hell out of it! Even then, remember .. there is nothing to act as an ''anvil'' as would normally be the case with a round in a chamber, so no way to really distort the rim enough IMO.

I guess there is no such thing as 100% ''certainty'' and ''safe'' - with anything - but this sure is 99.999999% safe IMO and gives me no worries with useage.

HTH.

Excellent thread. More range results please, preferably from a bench.

Chris- great pics; now we need a range report with all the trimmings.

edit- forgot to ask, and I don't recall seeing it posted before, but what was the price on the thing?

what was the price on the thing?

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Chris ..... quoting from The site

THERE ARE THREE SELECTIONS YOU CAN CHOOSE FROM, FOR AN ORDER....

**1. THE ORIGINAL, BUT NEWLY DESIGNED ACU’RZR WITH THE DISH AND NASTI-NOSE FORMING RODS.... PHASE III. THAT IS $37 PLUS $5.00 for shipping.

**2 THE BABY SCORP’N HAS THE B-SCORP’N AND DISH FORMING RODS, WITH THE HEAVY BASED TOOL. THAT IS $42 PLUS $5.00 for shipping.

**3 AND THEN THERE IS THE COMBO-ACU’RZR WHICH HAS ALL THE FORMING RODS ON THE HEAVY TOOL BODY FOR $52 PLUS $5.00 for shipping.

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Not the cheapest of things but the guys turns them up himself and that's quite a bit of machining .. deceptive.

As far as testing goes .... I'll make up some rounds in readiness but will need to sneak off to my local range one weekday - make sure it's empty and settle down to some comparisons ... from a bench, of course.

$37 and change? That's not too bad. I just need the 'dish nose' tool' really. I don't need to make EXTREME ULTIMATE hollow-points; but .22 wadcutters would be cool.

I need to go lurk over at rimfirecentral.com and see if people have been having issues with feeding- not just in semi-autos but bolt guns as well.

Thanks Chris... way too many 'Chris's on this board...

Great pics and explenation . I am sold thanx .