Hangingrock
Member
Glock G21, Springfield 1911-A1, S&W MP9 & Glock G17
If you shoot sub-MOA at 25 yds offhand with handguns, do not bother to read
- Thread starter Impureclient
- Start date
- Status
Peter M. Eick
Member
My only comment is about 30 years ago, I started shooting in earnest. I was terrible with a handgun.
I started at 5 yrds until I could keep all 50 of my shots in the black.
I then moved the target back to 7.5 yrds until I could keep all of my shots in the black.
I then moved the target back to 10 yrds until I could keep all of my shots in the black.
I then moved the target back to 15 yrds until I could keep all of my shots in the black.
Now 30 years later.....
I am at 25 yrds and I cannot keep all of my shots in the black.
Yet.
But it does not keep me from trying every time to keep all of my shots in the black.
I started at 5 yrds until I could keep all 50 of my shots in the black.
I then moved the target back to 7.5 yrds until I could keep all of my shots in the black.
I then moved the target back to 10 yrds until I could keep all of my shots in the black.
I then moved the target back to 15 yrds until I could keep all of my shots in the black.
Now 30 years later.....
I am at 25 yrds and I cannot keep all of my shots in the black.
Yet.
But it does not keep me from trying every time to keep all of my shots in the black.
5Wire
Member
otasan56
Member
I used to shoot well, but now the best I can do is keep 17 rounds of 9MM Parabellum on a target paper at 25 yards I figure that my 25 foot groups are still less than 4 inches. Good enough for SD purposes with my G17 at age 56.
I've got a plaque of pins from IDPA, have lots of USPSA results with my name in the top 5, took 2nd at my first local benchrest match, placed middle of the pack at a 1k BR event, even have a trophy for a shotgun ironman tournament.
When I think of all the different gun games and genres I dabble in, I'm impressed.
I don't know if I'm genuinely good, and I know there are people better and worse but at the end of the day I am happy where I'm at.
Doesn't mean I'm not dry firing and practicing at night when you're not looking though.
When I think of all the different gun games and genres I dabble in, I'm impressed.
I don't know if I'm genuinely good, and I know there are people better and worse but at the end of the day I am happy where I'm at.
Doesn't mean I'm not dry firing and practicing at night when you're not looking though.
45_auto
Member
Sub-moa at 10 feet will probably still be real close to sub-moa at 25 yards. As they say, pics or it didn't happen. Sub-moa at 10 feet would be about a .030 group (30 thousands of an inch).
okey dokie
Unless noted, all shot unsupported, with revolver groups shot double action:
25 yards, 5 rounds, stock 4" S&W 617 .22LR, 0.95":
10 yards, 3 rounds, DAO 4" 686, benched (bottom, 0.25") and unsupported (top, 0.26"):
10 yards, 3 rounds, Ruger MkIII, benched (bottom, 0.31") and unsupported (top, 0.23"):
15 yards, 5 rounds, stock S&W K-38:
MCgunner
Member
I often quote what MY GUN will shoot off sandbags at 25 yards as a gauge for accuracy. Best I can shoot off sandbags with iron sights is around 1". If the gun shoots better than me, I'll never know it without mounting a scope or buying a ransom rest. With an accurate handgun, I can hold about 4" off hand at 25 if I'm not hungry or had too much coffee. I think that's pretty good, though I realize I'll never make the Olympic bullseye team.
I always quote what the gun will do off sandbags best of MY ability at 25 yards to let everyone know what the GUN will do. I hear from some guys, "So, you're going to shoot someone at 25 yards, you'll be arrested." Or, "How is that relevant to a 7 yard shootout?" or some such. Hey, I may actually wanna shoot a rabbit at 25, done it before. I carry handguns outdoors and occasionally use 'em. I handgun hunt deer and hogs, too. And, well, you gotta have a standard for accuracy testing. 7 yards off hand rapid fire tells me absolutely nothing about the handgun, shooter maybe, but not the handgun. Now, at least, if you show me a benched group at 15, I can extrapolate that out at 25 yards and get a good idea what the gun/load is doing. I'm geared for 25 yard groups probably because that's what most of the magazine articles use in testing.
I think that's pretty good, though I realize I'll never make the Olympic bullseye team. I always quote what the gun will do off sandbags best of MY ability at 25 yards to let everyone know what the GUN will do. I hear from some guys, "So, you're going to shoot someone at 25 yards, you'll be arrested." Or, "How is that relevant to a 7 yard shootout?" or some such. Hey, I may actually wanna shoot a rabbit at 25, done it before. I carry handguns outdoors and occasionally use 'em. I handgun hunt deer and hogs, too. And, well, you gotta have a standard for accuracy testing. 7 yards off hand rapid fire tells me absolutely nothing about the handgun, shooter maybe, but not the handgun. Now, at least, if you show me a benched group at 15, I can extrapolate that out at 25 yards and get a good idea what the gun/load is doing. I'm geared for 25 yard groups probably because that's what most of the magazine articles use in testing.
420Stainless
Member
I was fortunate as a boy (40+ years ago) to sometimes watch USN shooters that competed in bullseye. They could shoot amazingly well at 50 yards. You don't come across people that skilled often, but they are out there.
mr.trooper
Member
Welcome to the internet. Dont feed the trolls.
45_auto
Member
LMAO!!!
Hopefully you guys that posted the pictures do realize that you're NO WHERE near sub-moa??
25 Yards/ .95" : MOA at 25 yards is .26". You're at about 4 MOA there.
10 Yards/ .26" : MOA at 10 yards is .10". You're at about 2.5 MOA there.
10 yards, .31" & .23" : See above.
15 Yards : let's say your group is 3 bullets wide. Total width would be 3 x .357 = 1.071. Center to Center would be 1.071 - .357 = .714".
MOA at 15 yards is .16". So that group is a little over 4 MOA.
Top pic with the dime at 50 feet:
A dime is .705" in diameter. Looks like edge to edge on your group is about the width of the dime. So your group size is .705 - .452 = .25".
MOA at 50 feet is .174". You're closer than Borland, about 1.5 MOA, but still not sub-moa.
Second pic with the quarter at 50 feet isn't even close enough to bother calculating. If we're talking MOA, it's way out there.
Hopefully you guys that posted the pictures do realize that you're NO WHERE near sub-moa??
mr. borland said:
25 Yards/ .95" : MOA at 25 yards is .26". You're at about 4 MOA there.
10 Yards/ .26" : MOA at 10 yards is .10". You're at about 2.5 MOA there.
10 yards, .31" & .23" : See above.
15 Yards : let's say your group is 3 bullets wide. Total width would be 3 x .357 = 1.071. Center to Center would be 1.071 - .357 = .714".
MOA at 15 yards is .16". So that group is a little over 4 MOA.
pete d said:
Top pic with the dime at 50 feet:
A dime is .705" in diameter. Looks like edge to edge on your group is about the width of the dime. So your group size is .705 - .452 = .25".
MOA at 50 feet is .174". You're closer than Borland, about 1.5 MOA, but still not sub-moa.
Second pic with the quarter at 50 feet isn't even close enough to bother calculating. If we're talking MOA, it's way out there.
45_auto said:
Certainly. And neither was Zins' target - you gonna enlighten him, too?
At any rate, you've been too literal, IMO. Go back and read the OP's first post: 1" @ 25 yards (4 MOA) is used as his example of a ridiculous internet claim, so the "sub-MOA" in the thread's title is either an exaggeration for effect, or he doesn't understand "MOA".
A handgunner is doing very well to shoot 10 MOA from an unsupported position, yet many posters on this thread have shown that there are quite a few sub-10 MOA shooters out there, so one ought not be so quick to dismiss such claims.
45_auto
Member
I have no trouble enlightening anyone who doesn't understand MOA. Just looked through the thread for anything from "Zin", I couldn't find anything. Give me the post number and I'll see what I can do.
My post about "pics or it didn't happen" (#108) that you replied to with your pics was in reference to a shooter claiming sub-moa at 10 feet (#106). That would be about a .030" group.
Sub-moa is sub-moa. Perhaps you think close is good enough, but if someone tells me they're shooting sub-moa I'm pretty impressed and would like to see it. Hard to see how that's being too literal.
I agree that there are some great groups out there. Probably even a few sub-moa by pure luck! But I still haven't seen one.
Certaindeaf
member
I think the Moa is extinct!
45_auto
Member
No, only the sub-moa is extinct. That's because they're so easy to shoot that anybody can do it on the internet!
Like others here, I have been involved in the shooting sports for many years (over 30 years). I have some decent classifications (High Master, Grand Master) in several handgun shooting sports. I too find it much easier to shoot well with a keyboard than with a pistol.
I took a picture of this group because it's pretty decent even though the distance was ony 7 yards. It still isn't sub-moa, or is it?.
45_auto said:
#103. Yes, please...see what you can do.
I'm sure Brian Zins will sleep better. 45_auto said:
Thanks for the clarification, but my "you've been too literal" reference included your earlier (#73) "it ain't sub-MOA" reply to a shooter who, like Pete D. and myself, made no such claim. If I thought the thread was to discuss literal sub-MOA handgun accuracy, I agree there wouldn't be much point joining the discussion.
Pete D.
Member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2010
- Messages
- 2,660
Huh.
45 Auto: I well understand what minute of angle refers to.
If you will check my post with the pictures, you will note that the last words on the page recognize that neither of the groups is at a 1/4 MOA.
The point is that they are - if group size is important when shooting one handed - they are good "groups", though the second is a poor score. Whatever I did wrong, I did it five times in a row.
Even the quarter sized group, had the sights been adjusted properly - is a ten ring group. The dime sized group is a 49/50. Wish that I could do that every time that I shot.
Pete
45 Auto: I well understand what minute of angle refers to.
If you will check my post with the pictures, you will note that the last words on the page recognize that neither of the groups is at a 1/4 MOA.
The point is that they are - if group size is important when shooting one handed - they are good "groups", though the second is a poor score. Whatever I did wrong, I did it five times in a row.
Even the quarter sized group, had the sights been adjusted properly - is a ten ring group. The dime sized group is a 49/50. Wish that I could do that every time that I shot.
Pete
45_auto
Member
mrborland said:
No distance reference with the photos, but if those are .38 or .45 sized holes they appear to be about a 2" group. If they were fired at 200 yards or more, they could easily be sub-moa.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
