25 Internet Yards

[Tallball]

I am a mediocre shot. If I entered a competition I would embarrass myself.

In my giant hands, I am doing well to hit the paper every time with a smaller handgun at 25 yards.

However, on a good day, with a large handgun with a long barrel and large sights, I can shoot 20 rounds at 25 yards and every shot will go into a space about the size of the palm of my hand. This would be something like my 7.5" Blackhawk, Browning Buck Mark, large 22 revolver, full-sized CZ75, something like that. And that's only on a good day.

If I can do that, anyone can, given enough practice.

 

[jlr1962]

I read the OP. While he might be thinking posters who claim such all shoot offhand, I never mentioned anything about off hand when I have posted a gun's accuracy at 25 yards on a thread. As I've stated many, many, many times before and in this thread, I shoot off sandbags at 25 to quantify accuracy of a gun and the gun with a specific load. If none of you actually test your ammo before carrying, how do you know where it hits or how can you quantify the gun/load's accuracy? In order to quantify a gun's accuracy, you have to take user error out of the equation, otherwise, you're not quantifying the gun and you don't learn dooddly about it or the load you're shooting.

There's plenty of time for off hand practice after I work up a load the gun likes. I don't practice off the bench, but I do test off the bench. With all the pics on this board of shot up chronographs, too, I'm thinkin' some of you don't even shoot off sand bags over a chronograph. Serious shooters like to test their equipment before actual use and the 25 yard accuracy thing is the standard in all the Zines, so it's what I use.

After the testing is done, the load is quantified and accepted, then I put it to use, practice or carry. THEN I do my off hand practice. About the best I can shoot off hand at 25 yards is 4", but I've shot some decent bullseye 25 yard groups that were better. On a 25 yard slow fire target, I kept one target that scored 99 4x and all shots were under 2" except the last one in the 9 ring that screwed up a 100 score. 97 scores were easy when I was shooting that style. This was done with a not so great Ramline Exactor when it was new. It later started screwing up. I never owned a target gun, but I doubt I could do much better with one. I used to practice bullseye (one handed) because our club would put on a local shoot once in a while. I'd really rather shoot momentum games, speed stuff. Most fun were the pepper popper shoots.

I see your location listed. Where is Sodom or Gomorrah? I have heard of the places, but I can't find them on Google Maps for Texas. Are you talking about Balch Springs? I know where that is.

 

[jlr1962]

I am a mediocre shot. If I entered a competition I would embarrass myself.

In my giant hands, I am doing well to hit the paper every time with a smaller handgun at 25 yards.

However, on a good day, with a large handgun with a long barrel and large sights, I can shoot 20 rounds at 25 yards and every shot will go into a space about the size of the palm of my hand. This would be something like my 7.5" Blackhawk, Browning Buck Mark, large 22 revolver, full-sized CZ75, something like that. And that's only on a good day.

If I can do that, anyone can, given enough practice.

You say that you are a mediocre shot. With what you describe, you would be the best shot that I, and others that I see shoot and actually talk to at the range, have ever seen. I go to a pistol range at least once per week, usually twice. I usually stay for 1 - 2 hours before my shot goes completely away, and I either sit and watch, or go home. During my time at the range, I check out all other shooters targets. I guess all of the shooters in the DFW metro area are less than mediocre.

 

[MCgunner]

I see your location listed. Where is Sodom or Gomorrah? I have heard of the places, but I can't find them on Google Maps for Texas. Are you talking about Balch Springs? I know where that is.

Between Houston and San Antonio. Look for Sheridan, but I'm in the woods.

 

[MCgunner]

However, on a good day, with a large handgun with a long barrel and large sights, I can shoot 20 rounds at 25 yards and every shot will go into a space about the size of the palm of my hand. This would be something like my 7.5" Blackhawk, Browning Buck Mark, large 22 revolver, full-sized CZ75, something like that. And that's only on a good day.

Actually, that's quite good! My hand's palm is about 4" across, yours might be a little bigger, but still, that's not mediocre, that's better'n average. Trust me, you would not embarrass yourself. There's always someone better, but there's always more that're not as good. It's understandable that you'd have a hard time with pocket guns if your hands are big. Mine are big, but not THAT big. I shoot the little guns well enough to defend myself.

What I used to do for fun, and I KNOW it's not proper practice, is plink a lot at 8" plates on our range. These were set on the 25 yard pistol range. I could run 6 for six when I ate my cherrios and wasn't too tired with my more accurate pocket guns firing not particularly slowly and in DA with my .38, my snubbies, and the little Radom was amazing no bigger than it is. Since I moved to the woods, I don't have that set up anymore. So, I bought a 10" gong target, one of those plastic shoot through things, and hung it out at 32 yards which is similar to shooting 8" plates at 25. I also have a 4" spinner I can move in on at 15 yards. I figure 12.5 yards is cheating a bit even though 8" at 25 would be 4" at 12.5. If I can roll those 6 for 6, I'm on target. I ain't a stickler for bullseye accuracy. I do most of my defensive shooting at handshake to 15 yards, point shooting at close range without the sights. I shoot on a B27 and if I get a kill shot, I'm happy.

When I test ammo, I have a paper target holding frame I set out at 25 paced yards and verify with my laser range finder. I set up the sand bags off my shooting window in my loading room, and test fire, with or without a chronograph. I take my time, shoot single action if I have the option, and place the shots off the bags. Doing this, I can get down to a shooter accuracy of 1" with iron sights. The gun and the ammo are the limitations to this, as it should be when you're testing ammo/gun for accuracy. Ransom rests are expensive and what with every gun needs an insert for the grip frame, I just shoot off the bags and it gives me enough insight into the load's accuracy. If I pull a shot, I can usually tell it, but firing 4 or 5 groups gives me a better idea of what the load is capable of minus shooter error.

 

[jlr1962]

Between Houston and San Antonio. Look for Sheridan, but I'm in the woods.

That is out there for me.

 

[mavracer]

With what you describe, you would be the best shot that I, and others that I see shoot and actually talk to at the range, have ever seen.

Maybe you just need new friends. JK
Seriously find a range that has a bullseye league of some nature and go watch. There'll be f few that are good.
My Monday league I shoot in COF has 20 rounds fired at 25 yards and there's 4-5 shooters that'll drop just a few points on a B27.

 

[jlr1962]

Maybe you just need new friends. JK
Seriously find a range that has a bullseye league of some nature and go watch. There'll be f few that are good.
My Monday league I shoot in COF has 20 rounds fired at 25 yards and there's 4-5 shooters that'll drop just a few points on a B27.

Do I know you? Did we watch the league at a local range?

 

[mavracer]

Apparently not you say you don't know any good shooters. I ain't great but I'm tryin'

 

[Steve C]

I shoot in a .22 Bullseye pistol league. We shoot 20 rounds for score on each target on the .22 portion at 25 yds.using the reduced sized slow fire target for 25 yd. An official sanctioned Bullseye match will normally shoot the slow fire target at 50 yds and use the same target at 25yds for timed and rapid fire 10 rounds for each.

In the modified Bullseye match of the type we shoot we adjust the score to the 300 pt standard by dividing the potential 600 pts by 2. Now we have some very good shooters who average above 260 pts meaning on the average 8 rounds maximum of 60 stray out of the 10 and X rings and they will occasionally get a high score over 285 pts. I am not in their class.

While target pistols are capable of best accuracy I look with skepticism on claims of 2" groups with a service handgun. While they may have shot an aberrant 2" group its likely not repeatable with any regularity. If you read the tests in the Gun magazines and look at the 25 yds test groups that are usually produced from a sandbag rest they will generally be closer to 3" +/- which is closer to the typical accuracy capability of a service handgun with good ammo.

 

[jlr1962]

I shoot in a .22 Bullseye pistol league. We shoot 20 rounds for score on each target on the .22 portion at 25 yds.using the reduced sized slow fire target for 25 yd. An official sanctioned Bullseye match will normally shoot the slow fire target at 50 yds and use the same target at 25yds for timed and rapid fire 10 rounds for each.

In the modified Bullseye match of the type we shoot we adjust the score to the 300 pt standard by dividing the potential 600 pts by 2. Now we have some very good shooters who average above 260 pts meaning on the average 8 rounds maximum of 60 stray out of the 10 and X rings and they will occasionally get a high score over 285 pts. I am not in their class.

While target pistols are capable of best accuracy I look with skepticism on claims of 2" groups with a service handgun. While they may have shot an aberrant 2" group its likely not repeatable with any regularity. If you read the tests in the Gun magazines and look at the 25 yds test groups that are usually produced from a sandbag rest they will generally be closer to 3" +/- which is closer to the typical accuracy capability of a service handgun with good ammo.

I don't understand people that always shoot from rests or bags with pistols, or always shoot from lead sleds, strapped down with rifles. I understand sighting in, but after that it seems kind of odd. More so with the rifle. Shooting AR's at a 25 yard pistol range off of a bipod for hours seems useless as well.

One of the local 25 yard pistol ranges I go to does not allow off hand AR shooting. People can screw around and shoot up the ceiling, other peoples targets, target retrievers, and nothing is said if they do it using a pistol.

I will make a point to go to a sanctioned match of some kind.

 

[Tallball]

At its widest parts, my palm is 5".

On a good day, with a very accurate handgun that I am very used to, I can sometimes shoot a 20 round group that can be covered with my hand (not counting my fingers at all). That is firing single-action with a very slow rate of fire. If I were prevaricating I would make up something much more impressive.

On a bad day it looks like someone shot at the paper target with an enormous shotgun, and mostly missed it.

 

[MrBorland]

With what you describe, you would be the best shot that I, and others that I see shoot and actually talk to at the range, have ever seen.

I will make a point to go to a sanctioned match of some kind.

An excellent idea. The skill level at your typical range isn't very high. Rather poor, actually.

There's a world of good shooting out there, but you've got to extend your horizons to see it.

 

[jlr1962]

At its widest parts, my palm is 5".

On a good day, with a very accurate handgun that I am very used to, I can sometimes shoot a 20 round group that can be covered with my hand (not counting my fingers at all). That is firing single-action with a very slow rate of fire. If I were prevaricating I would make up something much more impressive.

On a bad day it looks like someone shot at the paper target with an enormous shotgun, and mostly missed it.

5" palm...jeez
If you were to play darts, the throw line is 7' , 9 1/4" from the board face location if at floor level, (assuming the wall is square to the floor). Can you reach out and touch the dart board?

 

[IWAC]

215 Internet yards...is that like the gun writer's typewriter that never shot a group less than 1 1/2 inches?

For the most part, we have lost the art of Pistolcraft! Not all of us , or even most of us have the eyesight, reflexes, and steadiness to become a Jerry Miculek, or Ed McGivern, but, most can be trained up very well.

We have been subject to the "Close Quarter Battle syndrome, which is the way things happen nowadays, aided by the fact that most confrontations occur at very short ranges, which is the reason behind the "21 foot rule" as preached by Mas Ayoob, and incorporated into Law Enforcement agencies' training.

The other day, I was at our local range, and maybe a dozen shooters came and went. They were all shooting at 7 or 18 yards. Nobody used the 25 yard line, where myself and another really old fellow were shooting.
I am no great pistol shot, and thought I was doing well to keep the majority of my DA/SA bullets from my 4" Smith & Wesson And .22 in the 8" bullseye at the 25. The other old fellow was using legal paper-size targets, shooting a 6"Ruger Blackhawk, and keeping his pretty well in the center, too.

There seems to be some sort of rule at the range that handguns are only permitted up to 25 yards, but maybe some day I can talk them into letting me practice on the 50 and 75 yard ranges.

We have been convinced the handgun is only a "defensive" weapon, or it is only good to "let me fight to my rifle". That discounts The hosts of properly-trained people who can do serious damage to a gallon paint can with a Browning Hi-Power at 1oo yards, or Col. Charles Askins, who once outshot a bunch of infantrymen with Garands with his 1911 at 100 yards. A pistol can be really offensive, in the hands of someone who has practiced even a little at longer distances. With a little practice, it is surprising what the humble handgun can be persuaded to do!

As Harry Callahan said "A man's gotta know his limits!" But, how do we know what our limits are, if we haven't tried?

 

[mavracer]

I don't understand people that always shoot from rests or bags with pistols, or always shoot from lead sleds, strapped down with rifles. I understand sighting in, but after that it seems kind of odd. More so with the rifle. Shooting AR's at a 25 yard pistol range off of a bipod for hours seems useless as well.

I see people all the time at my local indoor range 25 yard max, shooting a 22 rifle or 9mm carbine at the 7 yard line

 

[MCgunner]

There seems to be some sort of rule at the range that handguns are only permitted up to 25 yards, but maybe some day I can talk them into letting me practice on the 50 and 75 yard ranges.

We used to have a 12" slip blind (which is about 14") we'd hang out at 100 yards and shoot at with snubbies. I could ring that thing shooting from roll over prone 3 out of 5 with regularity. Had to use a high sight picture, of course.

I was involved in IHMSA for a while. It was kinda boring and my wife never wanted to go score for me, so I finally quit. But, we shot at 50 yard silhouette chickens, 100 yard pigs, 150 yard turkeys, and 200 yard rams. The rams were oddly a LOT easier than the turkeys. The turkeys are what always kept my scores down. I shot a TC Contender with a 7mm TCU barrel, IHMSA adjustable rear sight, in stock production class and scored as high as 36 out of 40, though 33 out of 40 was more normal. There was a woman who had to be sick if she didn't shoot 40 of 40. She shot some sort of custom bolt action space gun, though. That's my excuse and I'm stickin' to it. Her gun, though, did have iron sights. It was shot in some sort of enhanced classification. Her husband was the guy that got me into it. They were down here from Kansas. He was working on a construction job out at the plant. She would routinely clean his clock. He always had, however, an excuse.

It was more fun than shooting paper. Hearing a "clang" and seeing a target fall is more gratifying. But, all the shoots were a drive for me, ranges up around Houston. Not everyone is set up for a 200 yard IHMSA competition.

http://www.ihmsa.org/index1.html

 

[PJSprog]

I've been thoroughly enjoying this discussion. For the longest time, I've been thinking pretty much the same thing; either I'm an absolutely terrible shot compared to most people, or they are seriously fudging their abilities. Good to know I'm not alone in this.

I know I'm not a great shot. I just don't shoot enough and with enough discipline to be that good. I'm OK, though. At 10 yards last weekend, I put 6 shots from my .357 into a group slightly larger than a quarter (with the exception of one flier, which was completely my fault). I was fairly pleased with that. I moved the target out to the maximum 25 yards, and the results were considerably less than spectacular. The aforementioned shotgun blast would be a good description. Every shot hit in the target, but they were all over the place.

I have also noticed that I rarely see anyone shooting out to the 25 yard mark. That day (last Sunday), there were several other shooters present, and none of them went past the 10 yard mark ... except my wife, who ran hers out to 15 yards for awhile. Curious that no one seems to want to shoot at moderate distances anymore.

 

[Tallball]

Most people's wingspan is about equal to their height. I am 6'6" and have longer than average arms, so yeah, my hand is closer to the dart board than most folks'. My shooting buddy is my FiL and he is 6'8", so people do notice us at the range.

One thing to keep in mind: if you have never shot a handgun with an extra-long barrel, it gives you a sight-picture advantage that is just ridiculous, especially with nice big sights. My FiL has a Ruger MkII target model with a long barrel, maybe 6.5", not 100% sure, and he can shoot absurdly well with it. If my Blackhawk had. 5" barrel instead of 7.5", I wouldn't be hitting things with it nearly as well at longer ranges. I can only imagine what a Contender would be like.

 

[MCgunner]

Most people's wingspan is about equal to their height. I am 6'6" and have longer than average arms, so yeah, my hand is closer to the dart board than most folks'. My shooting buddy is my FiL and he is 6'8", so people do notice us at the range.

My FIL was 6'8", played lineman for the Rice Owls in a rare winning season in 1939, won the second ever Cotton Bowl. I had 7 ft ceilings in my old house. He had to duck to get through the door and avoid the light fixtures. LOL! I can understand your large hands. His were monstrous.

 

[ACP]

my sense of 25 yards is that it is used as a measure of the intrinsic accuracy of a pistol --slide to frame fit, barrel and bushing fit, trigger weight, etc.

That way, if you are taking slow-fire head shots at 50 feet, and can't hit your target, you know it is YOU and not something wrong with the pistol.

 

[MCgunner]

my sense of 25 yards is that it is used as a measure of the intrinsic accuracy of a pistol --slide to frame fit, barrel and bushing fit, trigger weight, etc.

That way, if you are taking slow-fire head shots at 50 feet, and can't hit your target, you know it is YOU and not something wrong with the pistol.

Bingo, we have a winner. Only thing I'd add is intrinsic accuracy of the pistol/revolver and ammo. Have to make sure the ammo is accurate, too.

 

[Panzerschwein]

My range has a digital target distance indicator. I do not lie about my groups, and right now, no I can't get 2" groups at 25 yards.

 

[Walkalong]

Someone said something on the internet that wasn't 100% truthful? I'm shocked I say, shocked.


This is a target I shot at 7 yards. On the fourth shot the wind blew the left edge of the target over and it made two holes. I stopped, stapled the left side, and finished the mag. (7 rounds) No one believes me.

That is on a good day with a red dot and a very accurate gun. Sometimes it all comes together.

Same gun, different load. "Chocked" on the fourth shot and pulled it. 7 yards again.

I shoot through the chrono with targets at 7 yards a lot. Oh yea, I have plenty of bad targets too.

I don't generally shoot targets at 25 yards or farther. I shoot steel, dirt clods, bounce plastic bottles on the berm, etc, etc.

I really enjoy shooting steel at 100 yards with handguns.

 

[Saleen322]

As others have stated, accuracy testing is usually done from a rest or fixture at 25 yards. My conventional (Bullseye) guns are tested at 50 yards as that is where you shoot slow fire at. I shot silhouette for years and did most of my testing at the turkey line, 150 meters, as that is where the toughest to hit target was. A good center-fire conventional pistol with the right load will do under 2" @ 50 yards. A good 22 with the right ammo will shoot 1" @ 50 yards. Anyone who is serious about competing has to know what the equipment is capable of BEFORE shooting off-hand (in Conventional and International this is one-handed) else how would you know where your error begins and the equipment error ends? A typical 32 S&W Long test target with good ammo will look like the first one at 25 yards. The second one is a good 22 with the right ammo will do this at 50 yards and finally, if you do your part, a good standing target for me @ 25 yards will look like this. If only I could do that every time......