25 Internet Yards

[txblackout]

Allow me to preface with the fact that I know that some people actually shoot at 25 yards and do quite well.

However, I see in thread after thread where the guy with the new handgun shoots a 2" inch group at 25 yards. I don't know about the majority here, but at 25 yards, my front post is about the same size as the entire silhouette target. In fact, my (I'm a member there) state-of-the-art range goes to 45' in the pistol bay and 75' in the rifle. So 25 yards? Really? Or does one really mean 25 FEET?

Personally, unless I'm playing some sort of game with myself, I'm shooting at 21'.

Again, talking about unscoped handguns. And I acknowledge that a percentage of great shooters can group offhand at 25 yards. What say you THR? Do we call shenanigans?

Ive never read people bragging on forums shooting inches at 25 yards. Im a relatively novice shooter (probably under 2000 rounds total handgun) and I can shoot a pie plate at 25 yards indoors with no problem.

The entire target is covered, but you can still get consistency.

I have a suppressor on one gun and so the sights are too short to see any target, it doesnt matter as your brain can still figure it out and get on target.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Yesterday I watched a guy consistently put rounds into the 9 ring at 50 yards with a Colt Gold Cup. That wasn't internet yards either. At 25 yards all of those are going into the 10 ring. I can't do that but I know it can be done because I watched him do it. Over the years I've spent all of my time and money shooting trap. I gave that up and started shooting a 1911 recently. I'm always amazed at people who can shoot like that. Then I realize that what I could do with a shotgun on a trap range probably amazed some novices also. How many years and how many rounds did it take for that guy to be able to shoot like that? Probably more than 10 and 10,000.

 

[wanderinwalker]

My opinion is that with a mid-size or larger service pistol, at 25 yards a good shooter should be able to make head shots on an IDPA or IPSC target on command. Otherwise more practice and instruction are in order.

The other day I "blew" my last 6 shot double action group at 25 yards with one of my S&W 357s. Just for kicks I decided to take it home and put a tape measure on it. It was still under 3.5" center to center.

And don't get me started on accurate rifle shooting. My club has a 10" plate at 200 yards that I think makes for great offhand practice...

 

[MechAg94]

The groups that Gun Tests does are usually with a fixed rest that holds the gun in place. That takes the shooter out of the equation and tells you what the gun itself can do.


If you want to hear tall tales, just go ask hunters what groups their hunting rifle will do.

 

[BSA1]

Personally, unless I'm playing some sort of game with myself, I'm shooting at 21'.

What say you THR? Do we call shenanigans?

I say you need to start shooting at longer distances.

When I go to the range I will warm up with at 21' (7 yards). Shooting with two hands unsupported standing normally all shots will be touching in the X Ring after a couple of cylinders full.

After that I do all of my shooting at 10 and 15 yards using 2" snubby revolvers and 3 - 3.5" semi-autos.

With 4" or longer barrel revolvers and full size semi-autos I do all of my shooting at 15+ yards. On a good day I can put 7 rounds of 45 acp from my Colt Gold Cup in the X Ring of a bullseye target at 15 yards and chew out the X and 10 ring with more rounds. This gun is capable of 1" groups at 25 yards but alas the shooter isn't.

When I was doing a lot of handgun hunting with a S&W Model 29 6" barrel I could put all 6 rounds of 240 gr. JHP Magnums inside of 4" at 100 yards shooting with two hands unsupported standing. I was shooting single action.

All of my gun club handgun matches are shot at 25 yards. I don't consider myself to be a very good shooter as I have shot against too many shooters who think shooting the X ring at 25 yards is boring!

With my former department we shot from 3 - 25 yards (9 - 75 feet) on a B-27 target. I normally shot (well, still do) within a point or two of a perfect score all double action. (I really, really like K-Frame revolvers). If you can see the X Ring of a bullseye target at 25 yards you have amazing eyesight. You don't need to see the X Ring but you do need to learn to settle down your grip and when to break the shot.

All it takes is practice, practice, practice.

 

[ljnowell]

I regularly shoot NRA Bullseye. I shoot at both 25 and 50 yards. I have long surmised that when most people posting about the 1.5" groups ALL DAY LONG with their glock(or other combat pistol) are either exaggerating or lying.

Many times I have went shooting someone and found out their idea of 25 yards is more like 30 feet.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I shoot the International disciplines, both cartridge and MLAIC events. 25 and 50 meters (10% further than yards).

I've personally shot a 2-inch group at 25 yards offhand with a percussion pistol, but it's a rare occurrence. 3 inches is quite do-able, though.

But my free pistol shipped with a test target. 20 rounds at 50 meters. You can cover the group with a quarter.

 

[hso]

I see in thread after thread where the guy with the new handgun ...

That should be sufficient indicator that a skepticism should be applied.

 

[CoalTrain49]

If you want to hear tall tales, just go ask hunters what groups their hunting rifle will do.

We have a few days a year where the general public can come to our range and sight in their rifles before deer season. All of those guns and shooters are 1 MOA except the one's that aren't. I see the ones that aren't.

 

[C0untZer0]

What makes me wonder sometimes are the posts where someone gets a compact or pocket pistol and then report how well it does at 25 yards. I'm not sure what you learn from doing slow fire at a 25 yard target with a pocket pistol, so that does make me scratch my head. Here is my target, shooting two-handed standing unsupported, at 7 yards (21 feet) shooting my R9:

At 25 yards that is going to be a very very large shot group.

 

[highpower]

The theoretical accuracy of my Gold Cup is 2" at 50 yards. The practical accuracy for me is much, much less. I have been working on trying to develop a load that will overcome my lack of skill, but so far I have been unsuccessful.

Part of the problem is that my eyes are slowly failing (I'm in my mid sixties) and the sights are getting harder and harder to see. The other part of my problem is that I haven't practiced enough, although I am trying to go to the range two or three times a week. I find that I like shooting reactive targets much more than I like punching paper, so I really don't try for groups as much as I snould.

If I get to the point where I can shoot two inch groups at 25 yards I will be doing a happy dance right there and then.

 

[kBob]

I used to shoot with a guy that got dime sized groups at 50 meters with a .22....seriously and for real.....of course his pistol was a Hammerelli single shot and he was on the West German Olympic team.

When I first imported my CZ-75 in 1982 I fired it at 25 meters from the rollover prone using a sand bag under my right wrist and shot multiple 2 inch groups.

It is not all that far fetched that folks could shoot 2 inch handgun groups at 25 meters.

I hesitate to call folks I do not know and have not seen shoot names.

-kBob

 

[Mike J]

I find myself wondering at times also whether or not those claims are real. I can usually keep everything inside the center part of a paper plate at 25 yards. To be honest I have a hard time making myself slow down. I'm weird though. I do most of my shooting on private property & use a 100' tape measure to measure off how far I'm shooting at to make sure I know for real. I did come close to shooting a really good group with my old Dan Wesson .357 once though. At another forum where I am a member someone put up a challenge to put 5 shots on a playing card at 25 yards. I fired 5 shots single action. There was one shot dead center of the card. The next 4 were cloverleafed right below the bottom edge. I'm pretty sure I flinched every shot after the first one (that or the one that hit center was the flyer). I am sure if I had more time & money to invest I could shoot better but I have other things I have to keep taken care of.

 

[MCgunner]

25 yards is the standard for referencing the gun's accuracy. It's fired off sandbags if not out of a ransom rest. It has nothing to do with practical combat accuracy. It simply is taking as much shooter error out of the equation and giving a comparison of the gun or perhaps the load's accuracy in the gun.

I get irritated at people who say their gun's accurate and then post a B27 silhouette fired at 3 or 7 yards off hand. THAT tells me DOODLY SQUAT about the gun. All it tells me is that you can hit a B27 from 21 feet or whatever. If you missed, you'd REALLY need practice, especially on a B27.

About the best I can shoot off bags with an accurate handgun is 1". My eyes just don't allow me better. However, put a scope on the gun and I can shoot that handgun to very near its accuracy limit. I get 1" 50 yard groups with Federal ammo out of my scoped Ruger Mk2 for instance, better than I can shoot with my scoped 10/22 except if I use 20 dollar a box Eley Match. Then, the Mk 2 equals the rifle.

My old Ruger KP90DC is one of the most accurate semi autos I've ever fired. It shoots almost as well as a good 4" .38 revolver. And, off hand, I shoot it well. I've won enough local matches with the thing that I've pretty much paid for it with prize money. Good shooting gun and I carry it some. Little big for every day, though.

 

[Jim Watson]

25 yards got to be "the standard" when gunzine writers moved to indoor ranges in 75 foot rooms. NRA and PPC require 50 yard performance. I don't think anything but ISU Free Pistol is shot at 50 metres, everything else is 25 metres except where the air guns are taking over.

I used to shoot PPC and made Expert, but that was a long time ago. I got into "action shooting" of IPSC and IDPA where my speed improved but my accuracy decreased. I am now content to shoot at 15 yds, 50 ft, 20 yds.


Jeff Cooper once did a humor piece (Really!) on Duck Yards. He supposedly researched what various types of shooters and hunters called yards. The target shooter's yard was 35 7/8" due to the habit of people showing up at ranges with surveying equipment. The Duck Yard, based on decoy placement and angle of fire, came out to be about 24". The plinker's yard was 11" which no doubt arose from the custom of putting out tin cans at distances in feet and calling it yards.

 

[BobWright]

When I was hunting, I shot regularly at twenty five yards, and further. Not too sure of the group here, but this target is typical of the time:



I shot often, firing over 10,000 rounds a year, and could group about eight to ten inches at 100 yards.

Age has taken its toll on me, and also economics, so I shoot somewhat less these days. This target is what I consider "good" these days:



This is an exception!



As to age having an effect, I've had cataract surgery, and my vision, corrected, remains very good. But, I'm not as active as I used to be, and I shoot a little less. So muscle tone has deteriorated some to the point I'm slightly less steady now. Not making excuses, just stating fact.


Bob Wright

 

[MCgunner]

Regards to pocket pistols at 25 yards, I get 3" out of my snubbies, 3.5 out of my Kel Tec. This Radom is pretty good, too. Yes, I test guns and loads at 25 yards on my back yard range and confirm ranges with a laser range finder. I have that range finder for hunting, mostly for bow hunting now days, but use it a lot for other stuff.



Again, all groups fired of sand bags to test the GUN, not the shooter.

 

[BobWright]

As to long range shooting, I used to pick out targets, maybe a Styrofoam cup, on the berm 110 yards down range. One Saturday morning I saw some white paper, like maybe crumpled up magazine, and began to plink at it. When I put my bullet into it, it jumped from the impact and I saw it wasn't paper. It was, well, underwear, left from the night before!

Bob Wright

 

[C0untZer0]

I do think people put too much stock in mechanical accuracy. A ransom rest isn't going to be affected by a heavy, gritty, or spongy trigger that stacks, or a trigger that is different from the first pull to the next, sights that are difficult to use, a gun that doesn't balance well in the hand or other factors.

 

[MCgunner]

BTW, I don't quite understand how anyone can NOT understand that there needs to be a standard for testing weapon accuracy. ALL the magazine articles test at 25 yards. Sometimes they even test pocket guns at 25 yards if the gun is capable. If it isn't, the magazine doesn't wish to lose an advertiser, they'll just say it's not intended for accuracy, is intended for close range self defense. That's all fine and good, but hey, don't hurt that my "BELLY" guns all shoot into 3.5" or less at 25 yards to point of aim. It does make ME happy. I have some pistols that won't do that and they don't get carried real often.

Accuracy and shootability/pointability is why I like my revolvers and prefer carrying 'em. Small pocket autos are rare that can match my snubbies for accuracy. BUT, as you can see from the pic of the Radom, I do have a few that can do it.

 

[MCgunner]

I do think people put too much stock in mechanical accuracy. A ransom rest isn't going to be affected by a heavy, gritty, or spongy trigger that stacks, or a trigger that is different from the first pull to the next, sights that are difficult to use, a gun that doesn't balance well in the hand or other factors.

I can judge those things separately. But, if I need to know the mechanical accuracy of the gun or if I'm testing ammo for its accuracy, I want a standard and 25 yards off bags or ransom rest is THE standard used by the magazines so that's what I use.

 

[reddog81]

I try to shoot 500 to 1,000 rounds per month over 3 or 4 trips. I can get 6 shots touching at 10 yards occasionally. At 25 yards I can get 3 out of 6 shots into a 2" group if I'm lucky. The other 3 shots might be off the target or in a 5" "group" if i'm lucky.

My range has target stands at 7, 10, 15 yards and rifle stands at 25, 50, and 100. I occasionally see people shooting handguns at 15 yards, but very rarely. Most people shoot at 7 yards. I think I have seen 1 person other than myself shooting handguns at the 25 yard rifle targets.

However, the people who frequent this forum aren't your typical shooters.

 

[wanderinwalker]

I do think people put too much stock in mechanical accuracy. A ransom rest isn't going to be affected by a heavy, gritty, or spongy trigger that stacks, or a trigger that is different from the first pull to the next, sights that are difficult to use, a gun that doesn't balance well in the hand or other factors.

This is a good point. But I also believe sometimes people come up with too many excuses for poor shooting.

I always say if I were to lop the spur off the hammer on one of my S&Ws, it would suddenly become less accurate than my Glock, though most people would say the S&W is more accurate just because it's a revolver. (And mechanically it is.)

It comes down to executing the basics: front sight and trigger press. Of course some designs make this easier than others.

 

[guyfromohio]

Txblackout..... I don't think I would use the term "bragging". It's more of a matter of fact, perhaps a genuine misunderstanding of the range distance or maybe it just sounds better to say yards. I have no skin in the game as to the distance at which my fellow enthusiasts actually shoot. The vast majority on here shoot better than I do. That doesn't matter to me. I just do that little caugh caugh BS caugh caugh when I read about the exploits of the new gun I just brought home......

 

[DeepSouth]

I have a 1911 I built for backyard bullseye shooting. I measured off 25 yards and shoot off a bench, with a rest and slow aimed shoots and commonly get (make that got) 2" groups. 2 1/2 was pretty standard but 2" wasn't uncommon. I couldn't have done it freehand and probably not with any other gun I owned. I likely couldn't do it now as I rarely shoot with that gun much now days.


A friend of mine later showed me what he called the three digit shooting method. He shot, or tried to shoot, 5", at 5 yards in 5 seconds. Then master that and proceed to 6", at 6 yards in 6 seconds, then to 7"....... You get the idea, I like that style now as you really compete with yourself, it's amazing has how fast you get rusty and slow down. I'll never be as fast as my buddy because he shoots a 9 and I shoot 45's but when I hand him my 45's he's screwed.