Retention and deterrence

I wonder, due to its larger surface area is a long gun easier to retain than a handgun...? or is it just easier to have taken since there's more place to grab a hold of? If it is in fact easier to hang on to a long gun in a struggle is that a considerable factor for its selection versus a handgun?

mljdeckard said:

Also a reminder that SIMPLY SHOWING or shooting a handgun cannot be regarded as a deterrent. They may well continue an attack.

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That actually almost seems to be the norm. The first time I ever had to draw a firearm in self defense (4+ of them 1 of me) one of the attackers dared me to fire as soon as he saw the gun. Luckily he was in a car and the drive had the common sense to take a left and get the hell out of dodge.

Trunk Monkey writes:

one of the attackers dared me to fire as soon as he saw the gun. Luckily he was in a car and the drive had the common sense to take a left and get the hell out of dodge.

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Likely the only reason he "dared" you to fire...

From the story at the link...

The homeowner, a man in his 60s, was in his basement when he heard noises upstairs, Richardson said. He grabbed his handgun, went upstairs and found the intruder disassembling electronic equipment.

"The suspect tries to get up and leave, the homeowner tells him, 'No.' They get into an altercation," Richardson said.

A fight ensued with the homeowner ending up on his back and the alleged intruder on top of him. That's when the homeowner, "in fear of his life," fired a shot at the burglar, Richardson said. The shot missed. The intruder responded by taking the gun away from the man and running out the door.

Often the advice is given here in ST&T:

- don't hunt trouble, you might find it

- don't try to hold suspects at gunpoint

- learn to shoot from retention positions

- thugs may well not fear the gun in your hand, don't count on your having a gun striking fear into the heart of a goblin

That advice might have been well taken by the homeowner in question here. Readers have the opportunity to profit from someone else's misfortune - aka 'learning on the cheap.'

Fred Fuller said:

From the story at the link...



"The suspect tries to get up and leave, the homeowner tells him, 'No.'


Readers have the opportunity to profit from someone else's misfortune - aka 'learning on the cheap.'

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Training would have been useful, and not necessarily in weapon retention.

The saying is "when in doubt, let them out" not "when in doubt fight it out".

As usual, Fred is spot on with his observations.

Mas Ayoob wrote an article called the "Get Out Alternative". Anyone have a copy or find a link to it?

If I can choose between shooting the thief with a gun or with a camera, I will choose the camera.

Nothing I own is worth anybody taking a bullet, especially me.

Fred Fuller said:

Often the advice is given here in ST&T:

- don't hunt trouble, you might find it

- don't try to hold suspects at gunpoint

- learn to shoot from retention positions

- thugs may well not fear the gun in your hand, don't count on your having a gun striking fear into the heart of a goblin

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I've held a man at gunpoint for cops (bugler). No problem as it tends to convince them to stay.

And two of us in Charlotte, Virgin Islands, chased down a purse snatcher and held him for the VI police.

So holding someone at gunpoint is fine with me as long as you keep your distance and be quite willing to shoot.

Deaf

At least in your case, it apparently went better than it did for the person in the OP.

Can you guarantee that outcome for everyone who decides to follow your example?

I can't... and therefore my advice remains (among other things), don't hunt trouble, don't try to hold suspects at gunpoint, learn to shoot from retention positions and don't believe that your holding a gun will automatically strike fear into the heart of the goblin you're facing.

YMMV of course.

Given ANY option other than using the gun, I'm taking it.

If running away is an acceptable choice, I'm running. If *I* can't run, I can let the other guy run, if he's so inclined. Trying to hold a criminal at gunpoint prolongs a situation in which shooting is a possible outcome; knowing that the longer he's held, the closer the police are to arresting him may well make him MORE desperate and actually INCREASE the likelyhood of him doing something for which I might need to shoot him. It ESCALATES the situation instead of DEESCALATIN

Fred Fuller said:

At least in your case, it apparently went better than it did for the person in the OP.

Can you guarantee that outcome for everyone who decides to follow your example?

I can't... and therefore my advice remains (among other things), don't hunt trouble, don't try to hold suspects at gunpoint, learn to shoot from retention positions and don't believe that your holding a gun will automatically strike fear into the heart of the goblin you're facing.

YMMV of course.

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Guarantee? I ain't God, ok? Nothing in life is guaranteed but death and taxes.

But no need mess up your pants if you confront someone and hold them for the police.

A few rules for holding someone at gun point.

1. Have a good weapon and be wiling to use it.
2. Keep your distance so they can't take your weapon.
3. Don't talk to them other than short commands for them to OBEY.
4. Make 'em go prone and you want to see all ten fingers.
5. Don't read them their rights, make small talk, or let them talk.
6. And if they advance toward you... well that is just to bad for them.
7. Watch your back. See if you can maneuver so your back is covered.
8. If you or anyone else calls 911, give the cops YOUR description and the bad guys. Emphasize you are the GOOD GUY.

Massad Ayoob has alot more on that kind of subject but use common sense and you will be fine.

Deaf

No such thing as a citizens arrest in NC. I'm just not gonna go there.

Many other places, the possibility of other problems arises - legal as well as 'other.'

Do it if you want ... it's up to you. But without a badge, a commission card and all that goes with them, I still consider it a bad idea. Easier to remember just one rule of holding someone at gunpoint - don't do it.

Why would you attempt to detain someone? Can you articulate what further threat the actor(s) are presenting? Your mindset should be on self defense, not making a citizens arrest. If they want to leave let them.
STYG and Fleeing felon aside, The threat to you has at least marginally diminished...let them go, be prepared to be a good wittness and be prepared to engage the threat if it returns. Bullets dont come back once sent, and taking a life is a bit more complicated than is usually taught in classes.
Mas Ayoob writes and teaches on this quite a bit...his advice and training are invaluable.

Respects,

Medic

Fred your advice is spot on.

In a number of situations I have been faced with, the perpetrator has challenged my intentions, thus forcing me to shoot. In one particular incident, the bad guy challenged me after the first shot missed.

GS

I would hate to explain the following situation in court, on the stand.

"The man stopped his criminal activity, and turned to flee from my home. I pointed my gun at the man and yelled for him to "Stay right there, the police are on their way!" He stopped, stayed still, and then after a moment he attempted to turn and flee again. That is when I fired my weapon at him, and ultimately where he was pronounced dead..."

So if we are victims of a violent activity where we present ourselves and a weapon, and the criminal turns to flee, we are supposed to keep him in our proximity, with the threat level held high? Sounds foolish to me.

If the guy gets away, then I don't have to shoot him. I don't have to worry about a dead guy bleeding out on my floor, for all of my family to see. I don't have to worry about watching what I say in my testimony to police. I don't have to worry about wrecking my finances paying for legal fees. I don't have to worry about going to jail for the night. I don't have to worry about criminal charges, or my testimony on the stand, or years in prison away from my family that I was trying to defend...

JAshley73 said:

I would hate to explain the following situation in court, on the stand.

"The man stopped his criminal activity, and turned to flee from my home. I pointed my gun at the man and yelled for him to "Stay right there, the police are on their way!" He stopped, stayed still, and then after a moment he attempted to turn and flee again. That is when I fired my weapon at him, and ultimately where he was pronounced dead..."

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Can't do that in Texas, cop or citizen, unless the one you are holding that runs is a 'continuing danger to society'.

Now if he had chopped up five people in front of you and then RAN with the machete, then courts would see he as a continuing danger to society.

Any idiot knows that.

Deaf

Deaf,

We call that the Fleeing Felon docterine...unless you are LEO, good luck. You obviously have strong opinions, and are welcome to them...it just worries me that someone might take your opinions as good ideas. A CCW doesn't make you the police...it makes you a citizen with a huge additional obligation towards prudence and an abundance of caution.
You might also want to review the legal defination of kidnapping before holding someone against their will. With the wrong prosecutor and some public/political pressure you could end up with more time than your detainee.

Flfiremedic,

In Texas the law is very specific on force and lethal force. You can make a citizens arrest if the offense was done in your presence.

LAWRENCE PRESTON MILES, Appellant .v. THE STATE OF TEXAS

http://www.cca.courts.state.tx.us/OPINIONS/HTMLOPINIONINFO.ASP?OPINIONID=16065

But it is better to DETAIN the individual for police and let THEM ARREST THEM.

Why? So that way you are a witness and not the accuser. The police become the accuser. But detaining or citizens arrest, yes you can do that in Texas.

Do make sure you SAW THEM DO THE CRIME.

To detain someone without having seen the actual crime does leave you open to kidnapping, especially if they turn out not to have done anything illegal.

Deaf

So whats your plan if they attempt to leave peacefully? Is your plan different for non-violent/property crimes? Can you articulate your plan to detain them? Is your plan for felonies only? Earlier you mentioned flex cuffs and threats of shooting....are you serious? Gun them down as they walk or run away?
Your quote was holding them at gun point and being willing to shoot...what crimes do you intend to detain people for at gun point with a willingness to shoot?
Was any of this covered or recommended in your CCW class?

Uh Flfiremedic,

Where did I mention 'flexcuffs' or that other stuff?

Are you sure you have the right poster?

Now Texas law does allow for use of force,or deadly force, to apprehend a felon that is a 'continuing threat' to society.

But even LEOs are not allowed to shoot fleeing felons unless they are perceived as such a danger.

If they try to leave, AND YOU BLOCK THE WAY, then they ASSAULT you, well then one does the indicated response (police do that all the time.)

Deaf

My bad on the flex cuffs....maybe another thread or other poster. With that said, from your writings, plans/advice and war stories, my previous questions to you are still valid.
Now your plan is to limit someones movement and "If they try to leave, AND YOU BLOCK THE WAY, then they ASSAULT you, well then one does the indicated response (police do that all the time.)" is mindblowing.
Id love to hear your answers to my questions...also are or were you a LEO?
You are gonna do what you are gonna do...I just hope no other CC holders see your plans and follow your doctorine...I am afraid there might not be a happy ending for anyone involved.
A CCW does not make you a police officer...and I dont think the intent of its issuance is to put vigilantes on the street. Carrying a weapon puts additional burdens and responsibilities on your shoulders, and holds you to a higher standard.

Flfiremedic,

You did read what I linked to about LAWRENCE PRESTON MILES, Appellant .v. THE STATE OF TEXAS?

So whats your plan if they attempt to leave peacefully?

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Peacefully leave? After committing a crime in my presence?

I'll try to block the way and tell them to keep their hands were I can see them as the police are coming. What happens next depends on what they do.

Is your plan different for non-violent/property crimes?

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Yes. If I see them stealing from my car I'll just call the cops and follow them. What happens next depends on what they do.

Can you articulate your plan to detain them?

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That would depend on when, where, how I'm armed, how many of them, how they are armed, bystanders, etc... there is no set 'plan' kemosabe for every possibility. Again, what happens next depends on what they do.

Is your plan for felonies only?

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Depends on what happens in front of me. Domestic assault can be a misdemeanor, as can some thefts.

Was any of this covered or recommended in your CCW class?

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Now years ago I did teach CHL here in Texas (ten years worth) but most of my training is from Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, SouthNarc, and others when I was a student of their classes.

Deaf