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Pistol Quick Kill - up on you tube

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brownie0486

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brownie: In the other thread I mentioned it is not uncommon for gamers to use a target/threat focus. I would dare say there are many hundreds of thousands of shots fired each year by IPSC shooters with the gun below eye level.

Having said all of that, I'll stick my neck out before DavidE comes along. I eventually learned that it is faster to use the sights (when going to full extension) especially when shooting multiple shots and/or multiple targets. I can drive the gun harder and faster if I know exactly where each shot is going to impact the target at the instant it is fired. To crank up the speed at the expense of accuracy, I simply accept less visually, but I still know the bullet will impact the area I am accepting as a "hit".

For example, I can shoot a bill drill (six rounds from the holster) in two seconds with all of the hits in the A box (IPCS target) until I am ankle deep in brass using one continuous sight picture. If I crank it up and accept less visual input, I can shoot the same drill in 1.75 seconds with a couple of C hits. There is a point of diminishing returns. If I don't get enough visual inputs from the gun (as in looking over the sights and slide) my accuracy and my time erodes. In the gun games, misses are not acceptable. Some would argue misses are likewise not acceptable on the streets.

Anyhow, here is an old video of a sub 2 second Bill Drill using the sights with a Les Baer .45 out of a Kydex holster. Bill Drill

Here is a video of a series of Mozambique Drills with a bone stock Glock 19. The holster is a Blackhawk Serpa (and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone). I made the video last summer, but I don't recall why. Glock Mozambique

Yeah, I know the drills are shot gamer style, no scanning after the shots, etc. But my point is I am using a gamer style draw (as opposed to a purist 4 count) a la Ron Avery, and I am aiming and calling each shot a la Brian Enos...and it seems to work. I didn't zoom in on the Mozambique target, but all of the hits are in the A box, including the upper A box head hits.

On the flip side, you know from other forums that I also practice PSing, shooting from retention, etc. in defensive scenarios where appropriate. I do realize that there is merit to those techniques too.

edited to add: I remember why I did the Mozambique drill video. Each subsequent drill is performed faster than the first with no decrease in accuracy. The change in speed is a result of shooting with a more aggresive mental state as opposed to "trying to go faster". Some of you can probably relate to that.
 
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I'm not sure, if you are bringing it up to shoulder level, why you wouldn't look at the sights...what are the advantages?

Just an observation: It looks like your Glock is ready for a new extractor/ejector
 
I'm not sure, if you are bringing it up to shoulder level, why you wouldn't look at the sights...what are the advantages?

Once you start really moving and go to one handed shooting, not looking at the gun affords more stability and the gun doesn't bounce as much.

This one was simply to demonstrate that you can hit without sights at distances well beyond bad breath. Far too many are under the wrong impression that you can't, but as can be seen, it's possible. No more or less.

I certainly wouldn't be using that skill at 35 yrd on the streets, nor is that range taught with this skill in courses. It's really beyond it's effective range of use, but extending the range doesn't mean you can't still hit without looking at the gun.
 
"I'm not sure, if you are bringing it up to shoulder level, why you wouldn't look at the sights...what are the advantages?"
I am going to regret getting into this but...Can we agree that there may be times--due to distance, lighting conditions, fear or whatever--that picking up the sights may not be possible?
If you agree to this, would it not make sense to learn how to get good, fast hits without using the sights?
This is not an "either/or" debate.
Why not learn/practice both ( since neither is better/worse than the other--just different tools for different situations)
I think Brownie is showing an excellent method of shooting that can be taken out to 15 yards and further ( by gifted individuals.)
One that is very similar, may I add, to the current "Combat Focused" technique taught by Rob Pincus that seems to be very well received by the younger generation of tactical shooters.
"On the flip side, you know from other forums that I also practice PSing, shooting from retention, etc. in defensive scenarios where appropriate. Do realize that there is merit to those techniques too."
The above pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. Not much more to add.
 
Once you start really moving and go to one handed shooting, not looking at the gun affords more stability and the gun doesn't bounce as much.

Seriously?

Holding the gun in one hand "affords more stability" and/or "not looking at the gun" alters the laws of physics and causes the gun not to "bounce as much?"

Wow.
 
Seriously?

Holding the gun in one hand "affords more stability" and/or "not looking at the gun" alters the laws of physics and causes the gun not to "bounce as much?"

Wow.


That's correct, your bodies developed proprioception to balance without the brain using it's I function is more stable than when you are focused on the firearm.

The key part to the statement was "Once you start really moving and go to one handed shooting, not looking at the gun affords more stability and the gun doesn't bounce as much.

Proprioception: how and why?

There are five common senses that are discussed and learned from an early age: sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. The I-function, the conscious part of the brain, is very aware of these senses. It voluntarily checks information obtained by these senses in order to experience the environment, and also when a strong enough stimuli has signaled attention to these specific receptors. There are other equally important sensory systems set up that are essential for normal body functioning, but these are not so easily recognized by the I-function because the nervous system keeps the input unconscious. One overlooked sense, known as proprioception, is as important, if not more important as the other senses, for normal functioning. Proprioception is "the process by which the body can vary muscle contraction in immediate response to incoming information regarding external forces," by utilizing stretch receptors in the muscles to keep track of the joint position in the body.

Proprioception and kinesthesia, the sensation of joint motion and acceleration, are the sensory feedback mechanisms for motor control and posture. Theses mechanisms along with the vestibular system, a fluid filled network within the inner ear that can feel the pull of gravity and helps the body keep oriented and balanced, are unconsciously utilized by the brain to provide a constant influx of sensory information. The brain can then send out immediate and unconscious adjustments to the muscles and joints in order to achieve movement and balance. Why has the nervous system developed the sense of proprioception, and why is it an unconscious aspect of the sensory system? Proprioception, also often referred to as the sixth sense, was developed by the nervous system as a means to keep track of and control the different parts of the body. An example that enables one to best understand this sensory system is one showing what happens if this sensory system is no longer there.

Ian Waterman lost his sixth sense along with the ability to feel light touch when a virus killed the necessary nerves. The man still had all the nerves to control muscle movement but had no feedback from the outside world about where his limbs were except that obtained by sight. A normal person is able to move a finger, knowing where and what the finger is doing, with little effort. The normal person could just volunteer the finger to move back and forth and proprioception would make this an easy task. Without proprioception, the brain cannot feel what the finger is doing, and the process must be carried out in more conscious and calculated steps. The person must use vision to compensate for the lost feedback on the progress of the finger. Then the I-function must voluntarily and consciously tell the finger what to do while watching the feedback.

The eyes have to also be trained to judge weights and lengths of objects. As Waterman attempts to lift objects there is no feedback on how hard to flex the muscles except from what clues vision gives. Studies of Waterman support that through feedback from proprioception the brain is able to calculate angles of movement and command the limb to move exact distances. If vision is taken away, the lights are cut out, then Waterman will fall in a heap on the floor, with no ability to make successful voluntary movements. The examples of Waterman illustrate the type of information obtained because of proprioception and the great importance of this information. Without this sense humans would be forced to spend a great amount of their conscious energy moving around or would not be mobile at all.

The proprioception sensory system is carried out utilizing proprioceptors in the muscles that monitor length, tension, pressure, and noxious stimuli. The muscle spindles, the most complex and studied of the proprioceptors, informs other neurons of the length of the muscle and the velocity of the stretch. The density of muscle spindles within a muscle increases for muscles involved in fine movements, as opposed to those involved in larger course movements. The brain needs input from many of these spindles in order to register changes in angle and position that the muscle has accomplished. There is also more spindles found in the arms and legs, muscles that must maintain posture against gravity.

Another proprioceptor, the golgi tendon organ, is found where the tendons meet the muscle. They send detailed information about the tension occurring in specific parts of the muscle. There are also proprioceptors sending information to the nervous system from joints and ligaments. Depending on the amount, where in the body, and from what proprioceptors the different input is coming from, determines if the information will be made conscious or processed unconsciously. All the input coming into the nervous system is processed, and then depending on the state of the muscle, there are commands sent back to the muscle.

After thinking of Waterman's plight to accomplish many basic movements without the help of proprioception, the realization of the importance of this sense becomes apparent. I can possibly imagine the species successfully evolving without eyesight, especially if the sense of hearing evolved more keenly. However, it is much harder to imagine the human species evolving without the ability to easily move. Waterman's situation also makes the reasoning become clearer as to why the nervous system evolved keeping the I-function separate from most proprioceptor feedback.

Proprioception is extremely important and encompasses so many areas of the body. The sensory information being processed is a constant and a monumental amount. If the I-function, which can only focus on a few aspects at once, had to be responsible for all of the input coming in from all the different muscles there would be difficulties. The confusion would be overwhelming and the I-function would be useless in making decisions at the speed necessary, because it would need to think first. Thinking takes time, where the unconscious nervous system responds immediately through processes wired to specifically deal with the type and amount of input coming in. Systems like proprioception and other unconscious, yet crucially essential, systems allow the I-function to develop without having to be bothered with all functioning of the body. These unconscious systems allow a lot to get done at once. The I-function may spend time learning new skills and developing ideas without being inhibited by the large amount of stimulus needed for a successfully functioning of the body.

The I-function is most likely very aware of senses such as sight, hearing, and smell, because it can focus on the details that it wishes to consciously concentrate on. A lot of stimulus can be discounted by the I-function very quickly, if not ignored before it reaches that far, so that the I-function can concentrate. This is a necessary property of the I-function because we are multi-task beings that are constantly surrounded by stimuli. The I-function must have the ability to make decisions and be able to identify the stimuli in the environment relevant to our well being. The information coming in from the proprioceptors cannot be ignored, just as the neurons that are signaled to pump the heart cannot ignore the stimulus, because the majority of the information coming in is necessary for normal movement.

While proprioception is necessary for learning a type of movement or skill involving muscle, concentration from the I-function is essential as well. Once the skill, such as the appropriate movements of driving or the movements a baby must accomplish to walk, have been conquered and learned the I-function is not as functional during these tasks. The proprioception and motor systems can take over, utilizing a feedback system to accomplish a job that the unconscious brain already has learned. The I-function can go on to do other things, because it would mainly just hinder smooth muscle processes with to much thought and analysis. That is why humans do so many learned things best if not thought about. For example, the harder a driver focuses on what her muscles are doing as she drives, the choppier her movements will be, and the worse the driving will be.

The phantom limb also indirectly supports reasoning for the evolution of proprioception. A person with a phantom limb still feels pain or some sort of sensation even though they were born without the limb or it was amputated. The evidence that people having no limb at birth still can experience a phantom limb supports Ronald Melzack's idea of there existing a "neuromatrix". The brain has a particular matrix, or map of the body, genetically installed in the brain that both responds to stimuli from proprioception and continuously sends impulses to different parts of the body to check on the condition and location of the body parts. The matrix can be altered due to experience such as storing memory or changing synaptic connections, but the overall organization is set from birth. Studies show that the matrix can record the experience of pain and generate experiences of sensation on its own.
When the matrix sends out signals to the missing limb and receives no response from proprioception the matrix registers a problem in the limb instead of no limb. When the brain recognizes something wrong it reports a painful sensation to clarify that there is a problem in the area of the limb to the rest of the brain, and the person experiences a painful limb even though they know it is not there.

There is a matrix in the brain monitoring all of the sensory information and constantly checking to see where the limbs are. This matrix is able to adjust; recording data and generating certain sensation long after the stimulus has stopped. Therefore, it may also have the ability to record patterns of action by the muscles, while the I-function consciously works the muscles through new unfamiliar patterns of movement. The patterns recorded or learned, like those of pain, could be triggered by the I-function to signal for a pattern of movement. Then a learned pattern of movement could be set forth, initiating smooth muscle movements, such as a free throw during a basket ball game, without the I-function monitoring or interfering.

If this is a way that the brain records and utilizes sensory input to conquer and utilize movement pattern, then proprioception is a primary building block in the human's ability to learn, repeat, and become comfortable with so many movements throughout life. Therefore, it is essential that the I-function not be bothered by the sense of proprioception, unless learning a new movement, because these movement patterns would be useless if the I-function had to deal with the incoming proprioception anyway. With proprioception as an unconscious sense and the matrix giving unconscious feedback to muscles, utilizing my already learned movement patterns, I can concentrate on what I am saying in my paper without having to also consciously tell my fingers to hit certain keys at certain times.

With the sense of proprioception our lives are made less complicated, and we are given the ability to learn and utilize many movement patterns freeing the I-function to focus awareness on new tasks and thoughts. The I-function seems to be one of the most complicated aspects of the brain. Was the I-function one of the last aspects to evolve in the human brain thus far? If so was it because the necessities for survival were accomplished by the species, proprioception allows movement and eating is instinctual to the brain? Why did evolution cause the human to develop the I-function?

This information was taken from a paper written by Shannon Lee. The information above directly relates to threat focused skills and medically explains, in part, how the "body index" skills can be trained in all of us to be used to great effect in SD situations.

In one of the bolded, how one balances themselves or object being held while running is all part of the proprioceptors having learned to balance objects. We swing our arms to balance the upper body, to keep it above the lower torso. The faster we move, the more we swing our arms counter to each other to maintain balance. Now, try to run with two hands clasped together holding a firearm. Not duck walk, but run. What you'll find is the the bodies natural ability to counter balance with the arms is lost, thus more "bounce" to the object held. Of course, if you're only going to duck walk or walk fast, the results aren't as pronounced.

So when I stated "Once you start really moving and go to one handed shooting, not looking at the gun affords more stability and the gun doesn't bounce as much.", it's correct and backed by the medical research. If you've got more questions on the subject, I'm sure you can research as well as anyone else on the subject. You questioned the statement and I've provided medical research to support it. You can argue with me but you're going to have a hard time arguing the medical professions knowledge on how we perform and why.

And I really enjoyed this medical research:

Let me point out a few of highlights

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Godnig/vision_and_shooting.htm

The Body Alarm Reaction (BAR) is the body’s response to an unexpected and sudden change in the environment, most commonly initiated during the early stages of a life threatening attack. The BAR is often associated with combat or violent encounters. The most immediate visual change in response to the BAR is that the eye focusing system (accommodation) loses it ability to maintain clear focus on targets at close distances. It is not possible during the first few seconds after entering into the BAR to clearly focus upon the front sights of a gun.

Humans have an innate tendency to narrow attention upon a threat during extreme stress
 
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Write as long a post as you want, (must be a new record!) you can't alter the laws of physics.

If one handed shooting causes the gun to "bounce around" less, why do you use two hands in this video? Why did you use two hands when you shot matches?

It would seem that you'd use the "superior" technique all the time.....yet you do not.
 
Write as long a post as you want, (must be a new record!) you can't alter the laws of physics.

If one handed shooting causes the gun to "bounce around" less, why do you use two hands in this video? Why did you use two hands when you shot matches?

It would seem that you'd use the "superior" technique all the time.....yet you do not.


Because I wasn't running with the gun. Pretty simple. Again, it's simply a demo on what's possible without the use of sights at eye level. Once you start adding real movement, it benefits to go one handed. As for the physics of how the body moves and has developed proprioceptors, you're right, you can't alter the physics of how the body has learned to do things, no matter how you try. The article supports MY statement you challenged with medical evidence. Didn't expect that to go over very well with you, but the facts are the facts, and you can choose to ignore them or work with them and you've made your choices already based on a lack of knowledge and playing games.

Ever seen anyone running [ not just moving ] with their hands clasped together. Nope, there's a reason for that, explained quite nicely in that article. Long or short wouldn't change the well documented data on how we can move and balance things in our daily lives.
 
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"Once you start really moving....."

What, exactly, does that mean?


It means running/sprinting [ while firing ], not fast walks or duck walking. You know, just like we see officers running out of the line of fire and creating distance, running. Never seen an officer coming under fire duck walk and charge the threats two handed, that's a natural BAR response they are using to danger. Learn to use that to your advantage or not, the choice is yours.

Now, for the last time, have a great day. You apparently are just another one who doesn't know what he doesn't know and hasn't done the research into how to use it to ones benefit.
 
I am hesitant to enter another one of these discussions as I feel a bit like it's just not fair to keep piling on, but some things just beg a response.
In one of the bolded, how one balances themselves or object being held while running is all part of the proprioceptors having learned to balance objects. We swing our arms to balance the upper body, to keep it above the lower torso. The faster we move, the more we swing our arms counter to each other to maintain balance. Now, try to run with two hands clasped together holding a firearm. Not duck walk, but run. What you'll find is the the bodies natural ability to counter balance with the arms is lost, thus more "bounce" to the object held. Of course, if you're only going to duck walk or walk fast, the results aren't as pronounced.
I posted this before and you pooh-pood it.



Some of those guys are all but flat-out running. They're moving faster than some of us can at our best sprints. (Look at Tilley's run at the end there. That's practically a sprint. If you think that's a "duckwalk" then you need to head out to Chula Vista and show those boys and girls a thing or two about RUNNING!) I promise you if those guys could move ANY faster and still make hits, they absolutely would be. If that meant they were shooting one-handed, they'd be TOTALLY fine with that. So long as they HIT something.

The reason they move at the speed they do is that is as fast as the best humans in the world can go while still making a hit. The reason they don't use one hand is that they CAN'T hit with nearly the same accuracy if they drop a hand.

But you're saying that if they REALLY had a reason to run -- someone was shooting at them, say -- they'd be MORE able to make hits if they let go with the weak hand and just ran? And you could teach this to someone?

If they were moving backward would it make more sense? Would what you're saying work if they were running in reverse?

If this is a real phenomenon -- once more I have to ask -- SHOW ME. Put this out there in a video, showing you (or someone else if the technique is difficult, that's ok) "really moving" and making hits with one hand in the way you're describing.

I've seen and done a fair bit of practical type shooting on the move. Others I know and have seen and shot and trained with have done far more. I've never seen an example of someone demonstrating these things. As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. In this case, just a video or two.
 
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I am hesitant to enter another one of these discussions as I feel a bit like it's just not fair to keep piling on, but some things just beg a response.

If this is a real phenomenon -- once more I have to ask -- SHOW ME. Put this out there in a video, showing you (or someone else if the technique is difficult, that's ok) "really moving" and making hits with one hand in the way you're describing.

I've seen and done a fair bit of practical type shooting on the move. Others I know and have seen and shot and trained with have done far more. I've never seen an example of someone demonstrating these things. As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. In this case, just a video or two.


It's already in the can and done. It's a drill we run students through using QK or point shoulder skills at a run. I'll be throwing that up on you tube within the next 5-6 weeks I'd think.
 
"Once you start really moving....."

What, exactly, does that mean?


It means running/sprinting [ while firing ], not fast walks or duck walking. You know, just like we see officers running out of the line of fire and creating distance, running. Never seen an officer coming under fire duck walk and charge the threats two handed, that's a natural BAR response they are using to danger.

Show us the video of you doing this well.

No more "here's me doing something very poorly, but you gotta look past that, because it really, really works" crap.

Until then, it's just empty online posturing.
.
 
Matthew Temkin said:
9mmepiphany said:
I'm not sure, if you are bringing it up to shoulder level, why you wouldn't look at the sights...what are the advantages?
I am going to regret getting into this but...Can we agree that there may be times--due to distance, lighting conditions, fear or whatever--that picking up the sights may not be possible?
If you agree to this, would it not make sense to learn how to get good, fast hits without using the sights?
I hope you don't mind that I've re-formatted you post slightly to make it easier to read (who is saying what)

I agree and I don't ;)

I agree that there are times that picking up the sights aren't possible. I've shot under those conditions.

What I don't agree with is that it (what we're seeing in this video) needs to be practiced to be learned. It is a skill that is a by-product of practicing sighted fire.

I've been shooting long enough that I don't always need to see my sights, my arms just come up to the same place...and I have the trigger skills to not pull the shot off. I can clear a plate rack at 5-7 yards, just looking at the plates...but it isn't as consistent as when I see at the sights. The guy who encouraged me to try it, holds the GSSF record for the Plate Rack focuses on the plates...he can do it out to 15 yards.

What is interesting is that his dad can't figure out where he learned it...but I guess being a multi-time Bianchi Cup champion is a different skill
 
Once you start really moving and go to one handed shooting, not looking at the gun affords more stability and the gun doesn't bounce as much.
Well, that does explain a phenomenon that is oft discussed in LE circles:

How it is that officers can get training, practice, use tested guns and ammo, go to quarterly qualification, and still be unable to hit a fleeing BG...

While a BG doesn't practice, loads a stolen gun with mixed ammo, fires a shot one-handed over their shoulder while running away...and always scores a killing shot on the pursuing officers.

I'd always considered it a briefing room exaggeration...who would have known? :rolleyes:
 
Brownie,

Do not say one thing and then do another.

If one hand is superior, use that one hand in the videos.

If 1/2 hip gives great groups at close range, then demo just that.

Don't give excuses.

Deaf
 
thanks

Brownie, Thanks for this insight. I stumble through a lot of these blogs seeing repetition and it is great to see some different thought processes. Added to the thought process the medical research is a real plus. What's more...I think you are right!
Just when I think I understand things I now have to rethink and re/alter practice some things.
 
Brownie,

Do not say one thing and then do another.

If one hand is superior, use that one hand in the videos.

If 1/2 hip gives great groups at close range, then demo just that.

Don't give excuses.

Deaf
Ditto.

One wonders, if the "videos are already in the can," why we need to wait 5-6 weeks for him to post them.
 
I can think of a few scenarios where one would shoot with one hand while running. But they are pretty limited and the quality of fire would be "supressive" as opposed to "hit" quality.
 
Brownie, Thanks for this insight. I stumble through a lot of these blogs seeing repetition and it is great to see some different thought processes. Added to the thought process the medical research is a real plus. What's more...I think you are right!
Just when I think I understand things I now have to rethink and re/alter practice some things.


You're welcome J R, the medical research about how prioprioceptors are created and how we have developed and use proprioception without conscious thought is an interesting subject.

I fail to care to argue with those who are closed minded further on this forum.
 
I have seen many people running--track or just for a bus.
Funny--but I never saw anyone running with their hands clasped together.
 
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