Cold range vs. Hot range

Our range tried to address all of your concerns by having the following in place -

• Normal ranges (pistol, rifle, rimfire)
• Action pistol range

At the normal ranges, the rules in effect are concealed carry is permitted but the gun must remain holstered at all times. So far, there has been no complaint of violating this rule as violations mean loss of membership.

At the action pistol range, additional training beyond orientation is required, and then a combination to a separate gated area is provided. This area has extra high banks, providing 270° protection, and is the club's venue for CAS and their local equivalent of IDPA.

In this area, drawing from a holster is part of sanctioned events and is also permitted for practice. The range rules are stricter, and you are expected to act as RSO if one is not present. (You are practicing by yourself).

Regardless of which area is in use, guns must always be transported unloaded and muzzle discipline observed when the range is hot.

For action pistol, the gun is not supposed to be loaded until the participant is at the stage and the command is given. Loading magazines on a table well behind the firing line is permitted at any time.

As to the terms "Hot" vs. "Cold", I'm sure there isn't a universal term for what you are describing, but these have been used for quite a while to indicate the status of the range -- that is, is it safe to proceed downrange and service targets? Only if the range is Cold.

By the way, our club observes very strict rules about Cold range status, as do many others I've read about. Bolts out, actions open, no touching uncased rifle / pistol while range is cold. It is essentially a "time out", where you can just sit there if you do not also need to go downrange and service targets with the others. In other words, everyone has to feel really comfortable with walking directly in front of a line of muzzles aimed at their back. Gun disabled + nobody allowed to touch it = no violation of The Four Rules. At least that's how we interpret it.

As to the terms "Hot" vs. "Cold", I'm sure there isn't a universal term for what you are describing, but these have been used for quite a while to indicate the status of the range -- that is, is it safe to proceed downrange and service targets? Only if the range is Cold.

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Yes, this is a bit of a problem. We only have the ability, it seems, to come up with two words to describe a firing range, and we use them to cover a wide variety of almost unrelated matters!

For the purposes of this discussion, a HOT range is one where all guns may be loaded at any time, and hence holster, sling, and muzzle discipline is hyper-vigilant at all times. Some folks have taken to calling this "Big Boy Rules".

A COLD range, in this context, simply means that no guns are loaded unless preparing to fire and/or under the direction of a Safety Officer. You shoot, you SHOW CLEAR, hammer-down, and holster that EMPTY gun.

From an IDPA/competition standpoint, the organization reccommends a cold range (everyone except the shooter(s) on the line or in a stage are unloaded and holstered) but does allow a hot range (everyone is loaded at all times) if the local range desires to run that way.

For variety )) we also occasionally run "hot bays" in which (for speed of dealing with working a lot of shooters through the match stages quickly) we bring the squad into the bay, load the entire squad at once, and then no one's supposed to leave the bay until they've shot the stage and showed clear (gone cold again).

None of this really perfectly directly corresponds to the idea of making a firing line or bay SAFE(Cold) to go downrange and "Hot" to fire.

It is awkward nomenclature.

The outdoor range I mostly go to (state run) allows loaded and holstered pistols (and working from the holster), but long guns or any non-holstered gun has to be unloaded unless you are at the firing line, and is otherwise a classical cold range (called hot, then called cold to go check targets and there is no handling of firearms, putting anything ont he line, taking off the line, nothing)

What is that called?

I guess it's cold + holstered handguns?

Chattanooga Rifle Club

Straight from the rule board. Makes sense to me.

Handgun Carry/Permit Weapon at Chattanooga Rifle Club

We must remember our # 1 Safety Rule: The CRC is a COLD range! That means:

"No gun/weapon shall be loaded at anytime until you are ready to engage your target"

Our #1 safety rule and the safest policy for all concerned on this issue is the following:

If a member desires to practice/shoot with his handgun carry/permit weapon, he should have the weapon unloaded before entering the CRC property. The weapon should not be reloaded until he leaves the CRC property.

If a member does not plan on shooting his handgun carry/permit weapon, he may leave the weapon loaded and holstered or concealed on his person at all times that he is on the CRC property.

au_prospector said:

Straight from the rule board. Makes sense to me.

Handgun Carry/Permit Weapon at Chattanooga Rifle Club

We must remember our # 1 Safety Rule: The CRC is a COLD range! That means:

"No gun/weapon shall be loaded at anytime until you are ready to engage your target"

Our #1 safety rule and the safest policy for all concerned on this issue is the following:

If a member desires to practice/shoot with his handgun carry/permit weapon, he should have the weapon unloaded before entering the CRC property. The weapon should not be reloaded until he leaves the CRC property.

If a member does not plan on shooting his handgun carry/permit weapon, he may leave the weapon loaded and holstered or concealed on his person at all times that he is on the CRC property.

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So if I am going to work from the holster (this is a concealed CARRY gun, right?) I need to handle a loaded gun in my car in order to unload it and put it in a bag or something, then load it on the line, then put it in my holster, then do my work, then unload it, take it to the car, and load it in the car?

That doesn't make sense to me.

I would think that the firing line would be a safer place to load/unload a gun than in the car.

That does sound like a pretty reasonable policy, generally.

The one problem is this:

he should have the weapon unloaded before entering the CRC property. The weapon should not be reloaded until he leaves the CRC property.

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Which means that the club is either a) expecting members to carry an empty gun from their house to the range, b) not carry and bring a cased empty gun to the range to practice with, c) stop "somewhere" just outside the club property, in their cars, and draw and unload their firearm out on a public street, away from any safe area or berm, and then repeat the process just after they leave, or d) lie about it and find an unobserved spot to do the unloading/reloading dance once they're on the property.

Unfortunately, "c" is probably pretty likely, and that's just a really bad situation all around -- and "d" is actually what IS happening.

The club NEEDS to provide a safe unloading/loading area where members can make this transition. Otherwise the club is making a dangerous situation happen and then saying, "well, it wasn't on our property so we don't care!"

We have a simple bullet trap (sort of like this one: http://store.actiontarget.com/full-size-clearing-trap.html) in a safe area of our club house where folks can clear their carry weapons if they aren't going directly to a pit or range.

At clubs with this badly thought-through policy we've caught people literally SNEAKING off to unload their guns in the bathroom, in a closet, behind their cars in the club parking lot, behind a tree or bush, and even in the flippin' porta-potties! It sounds funny, but it really is a serious safety violation.

I believe a hot range is safer - see rule #1, but most people cannot get around the issue of feeling superior to others.

The range I frequent has simple rules. Long guns are brought in unloaded and actions open on the bench during cease fire. If no CCW, handguns are treated the same. Load them, shoot them, clear and bench them during cease fire.

If you do have a CCW, you keep your pistol holstered until you are at the firing line. Unholstering behind the line gets you expelled. You MUST be cleared by a safety officer to work from a holster at the range. This is done by demonstrating a safe draw and re-holstering technique with the unloaded handgun to the RSO's satisfaction. While the line is hot, you may draw, shoot and re-holster as much as you like. When the line goes cold (cease fire called), you clear and bench like everyone else.

When leaving, simply holster and leave the line.

While not a true "hot range", it's the best compromise the management can do with the variety of clientele they serve. Some professionals, some morons. Just like the rest of the world.

come on guys. au prospector's post is both logical and practical. if you want to play with your concealed carry weapon, bring another ccw weapon in an ankle holster, or something.

loading and unloading a gun in a car is dangerous and, i hope, your comments were derogatory.

any weapon brought to a range stays unloaded and cased until placed on the firing line while the range is hot. the ccw weapon is the exception to this rule and, as such, must remain untouched while at the range. makes sense to me.

murf

IlikeSA said:

The local range near me allows one to "qualify" to carry and draw from a holster. That may be an option as well.

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If I were on the BoD, this is an option I would be interested in exploring. I absolutely see the value of keeping a Hot Range, but I can also understand the concern over safety as more and more people begin carrying concealed firearms. Whether or not to allow drawing from the holster is of particular importance to me, as this is known to be the point at which a great deal of NDs take place.

However, again, I can see the perspective where it would almost be doing your members a disservice to prevent them from having the opportunity to practice drawing from a holster. It's definitely a difficult question and needs to be addressed with care.

I didn't read all the responses but I will relate how my club handles this issue. If you are a LEO or have a CCW permit you can carry anywhere on club property including the firing line. However if you want to work from the holster drawing and firing there is another requirement you must meet. You have to compete in three USPSA, CAS, and/or steel matches. You need to demonstrate you can draw and fire safely this way. Not looking for great scores just looking that you can do this safely. No exceptions. I was a LE instructor for about 30 years and I had to do this. You then submit copies of your scoresheet to the BOD who issue you a "draw and fire" badge. You're only allowed to do this in what we refer to as "the pits" which are individual ranges with a high berm between them not on a regular firing line.

murf said:

come on guys. au prospector's post is both logical and practical. if you want to play with your concealed carry weapon, bring another ccw weapon in an ankle holster, or something.

loading and unloading a gun in a car is dangerous and, i hope, your comments were derogatory.

any weapon brought to a range stays unloaded and cased until placed on the firing line while the range is hot. the ccw weapon is the exception to this rule and, as such, must remain untouched while at the range. makes sense to me.

murf

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I've been going to multiple ranges for years without these silly restrictions and it works just fine.

Seems like unnecessary restrictions for the sake of restrictions to me.

I've been going to multiple ranges for years without these silly restrictions and it works just fine.

Seems like unnecessary restrictions for the sake of restrictions to me.

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Haven't commented till now, but I agree with Warp.

We have become a Nation thinking rules and laws can stop all bad things from happening.

In effect we are running scared.

Ain't gonna work folks.

come on guys. au prospector's post is both logical and practical. if you want to play with your concealed carry weapon, bring another ccw weapon in an ankle holster, or something.

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Or something? I don't own an ankle holster or a tiny gun to go in it. I don't want to carry TWO guns just so I practice with one of them. I want to practice with my carry gun. I'm not necessarily going to use "hot range" rules -- I have no problem clearing my carry gun at a safe area and keeping it empty AND HOLSTERED while not shooting.

I and many thousands of shooters do just this thing every single week.

The "problem" is scary to folks who don't work with these sorts of rules all the time, and a bit of absurd tilting at imaginary windmills to those of us who do.

loading and unloading a gun in a car is dangerous and, i hope, your comments were derogatory.

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I don't think you meant "derogatory" but maybe facetious? No, my comments were not facetious. Give folks no place to safely clear their carry guns and they WILL do it wherever they find that they can. Cars are the number one spot. In the commode or porta-pot is ... (wait for it...) Number 2! (lol.)

any weapon brought to a range stays unloaded and cased until placed on the firing line while the range is hot. the ccw weapon is the exception to this rule and, as such, must remain untouched while at the range. makes sense to me.

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It makes sense to you, if you aren't used to a more accommodating range arrangement. If you are, then it doesn't make sense at all.

Sam1911 said:

It makes sense to you, if you aren't used to a more accommodating range arrangement. If you are, then it doesn't make sense at all.

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I think this sums it up.

In fact, I think this sums up a lot of things.

I mentioned it recently...people tend to fear that which they do not understand.

In the case of topics that come up on gun boards/THR, people worry about things they don't have experience with.

I think I would tend to avoid what is being described as a "hot range".
I have seen too many idiots on "cold ranges" that would be total disasters on a hot range. I understand that with strictly enforced rules they wouldn't last long, but I don't want to be around when they demonstrate that they can't follow the rules that will get the banned.:banghead:

Warp said:

I mentioned it recently...people tend to fear that which they do not understand.

In the case of topics that come up on gun boards/THR, people worry about things they don't have experience with.

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I will the first to say I have no experience at all with "hot" and "cold" ranges. I am fortunate to have two small private ranges on family land where I do most of my shooting. The only other "range" experience I have in the 60 years of shooting is with two small local Sportsman Club ranges. There are no ROs and unless one goes the week before gun deer season, during Hunter safety range day or during scheduled tarp/skeet nights, you are generally the only one there. As I said earlier, both these ranges have addressed the idea of fast draw and firing by separating it from the general shooting area and restricting it to one person at a time. Still, it's not unusual to go there and see two guys back at the 50 yard bench drawing and shooting. More times than not, those offenders are not club members, nor did they pay the $10-$20 annual range pass fee. Just folks that show up cause the range is always open. Ranges are self-regulated, but it's hard to enforce rules when there is nuttin' to lose. As a member of both, I always ask to see a range pass or membership card when I don't recognize someone, but even if they do agree to leave when they don't, they aren't out anything. I can see where a club with a restricted membership that has a substantial annual dues could have more clout to enforce rules and being more heavily used would mean rules would have to be enforced. Reading threads like this not only educates me to what others have to contend with when they shoot, but makes me realize how good I have it.

Trent said:

One board member brought up that people should not be practicing drawing from a holster on the pistol range, period.

I'm not trained as a Range Safety Officer, but I do know that the RSO's responsibility for safety on the range is paramount. That said, drawing from a holster introduces a whole 'nother level of safety concerns, especially with multiple people on the range. One-on-one is not always possible to ensure adequate safety with multiple people on the range. Of course, the RSO is simply not present outside of certain sanctioned events which you mentioned.

That said, maybe some holster restrictions might be in order if you were to allow holster draw on the range. Like strong-side-only belt holsters, no cross-draw, no shoulder holsters, no small-of-the-back holsters. Maybe an emphasis on FORM over SPEED. How you word this is up to you, given that compliance is a matter of personal integrity with no RSO present.

Same board member brought up that NO loaded firearms should be present on the range, period, that people should unload and bring them in a case to the range.

Kind of defeats the purpose of a gun range, in my opinion. I think what you need here is a clear and concise policy on how guns are to be transported to and from the range. Maybe something along the following:

Firearms may be transported to and from the range in one of the two following conditions:

1. Holstered (loaded or unloaded).

2. In a carry case (unloaded).

You may likewise clarify what, exactly, the terms "loaded" and "unloaded" mean, as well as "hot" and cold" ranges.

You should also clarify when and how the guns may be handled in various places/range conditions.


Another issue; dealing with concealed carry while doing organized shooting events (sporting clays, trap, steel on steel matches, silhouette rifle matches, and rimfire/centerfire rifle matches including NRA High Power & NRA Smallbore.)

This one is easy. Concealed (or open) carry has nothing to do with these events. It's a holstered weapon, not intended to be used in these events, therefore safety is not a concern PROVIDED the carry weapon is properly carried in a holster suitable for the event. In otherwords, "Mexican carry" and those flimsy nylon belt holster sleeves should not be allowed. Again...with no RSO, this is a matter of personal integrity.

(NOTE: I can't find an example of the "flimsy nylon belt holster sleeves" on line. Suffice it to say that I had one way back in my young and stupid days and that's an accurate description of it. It was nothing more than an open-top floppy nylon sleeve with a belt clip on it. TOTALLY inadequate for retention with much movement at all.)

Personally I view a holstered gun as a safe gun. I also feel that in order to practice and gain proficiency with a handgun, drawing from a holster (concealed or otherwise) is a vital part of that training and practice. I am "pro hot range".

But I have a feeling I am in the minority on the board, and want to present a compelling argument next month. So I am soliciting feedback.

It is my opinion that 9/10 of any battle with respect to getting what you want administratively is to do all the administrative work yourself. In this case, that means YOU actually sit down and draft up ALL the rules, worded the way YOU want. Print them up, print out professional looking signs, and in your presentation, outline what they mean and how they are implimented.

Any postings should be short and clear, enough so that the simple rules on them stand out in their bold simplicity.

Likewise, definitions and clarifications should use a minimum of wording for the same reason.

Map out where the essential postings will be located on the range and explain how these fit in to a logical scheme.

In my experience, it's simply amazing how many other people out there end up either 'going with the flow" or limit themselves to minor suggestions/changes when someone else has taken the time to present a well thought out fait accompli. And hardliners against what you want will likewise have to do all their own work if their goal is to totally go against your own. Pretty amazing how many of those types of people are too lazy to do this.

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Additionally, you may wish to visit other well established ranges which operate under rules you like and model your presentation on their established history.

It sounds like the pendulum is swinging slightly in your favor at this point, based on what you know. Good.

The more one on one (or small group unofficial ahead of time) interaction you can get with fence sitters or opposition before hand, the better.

taliv said:

it might help to point out how many thousand other clubs there are in the US that permit shooting pistol from holster

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I could not agree more!

Many, many people attend many, many ranges, all day, every day, where there is drawing and firing from the holster.

And it works!