Confusing Range Commands

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Interesting. So it doesn't bother you to go downrange with possibly other people's loaded firearms with the chamber closed behind you? You really don't mind if you're downrange and people are handling firearms with the chamber closed and possibly loaded, and putting loaded mags into weapons like you do? You have that much trust in the gunhandling skills of everyone else?

I hope you like looking down the barrel of a loaded gun. You start loading a gun when people are downrange around here and you'll quickly find out just how many are carrying concealed .....

Good luck!

Wow man, your reply has it all! Out of context quoting, hyperbole, implications of enjoying suicidal behavior, veiled threats, and insincere wishes of good fortune. You even threw in a quintuple dot!

I'm not sure I should even bother trying to set you right, but here goes. There's a difference between a gun with a loaded mag, in a rack, pointing safely UP, then a gun with the action open pointing downrange at people changing targets. Personally, I don't want even an unloaded gun pointed at me. Also, when a range goes down, people aren't handling guns; they're changing targets.

Yeah, I have faith that a guy isn't pointing a gun at my back when I change targets. I go to good ranges, with decent people that don't have to follow a drill sergeant's Pavlovian commands to safely have a good time. And, they know the difference between administrative loading/racking and making like you're going to be unsafe/shoot somebody.

I don't know about where you're from....thought the Army collected all your guns back in 05? Maybe that was because, based on your statements, that people carrying concealed are crazy enough to draw down on someone for simply holding a gun at a gun range? Personally, I think trying to out-man someone at a gun range by pulling your CCW piece is about the worst thing you could do, since, chances are, the other guy is already holding a gun, and thus, has you beat to the draw by default.
 
When I am acting RSO at our range this is what I do.

If the line is crowed I watch when people on the line stop shooting and kinda start looking around. I will walk down to the station they are firing at and ask them if they are ready to go set targets, have a problem or what's going on.

If there is a malfunction of some serious nature I will call cease fire and walk up and down the line and tell each station to drop mags, if applicable, safety their gun and place on the bench with bolt open facing upwards. Then I will handle or try and handle the malfunction or problem.

If the group or station is waiting to set targets I will tell them that I will close the range in a few minutes and just hang out until I do. I will walk the line telling folks that I am about to close the firing line and to finish there magazine, and to please stop after doing so. Then when people are finishing up I will call that the firing line is closed. Please make sure that your firearms are unloaded, safety on, bolt open and facing upwards. When that is done I will say the range is now closed you may step forward of the firing line replace targets, let new shooters come up to the line. No one is allowed to touch their weapons while range is closed.

When everyone is back I ask if everyone is ready to reopen the line. If no problems I instruct everyone to put thier eyes and ears on, no one is allowed in front of the firing line. Once that is accomplished I call that the firing line is now open. You may pick up your firearms load and fire when ready.

Pretty simple and everyone seems to get it. Yesterday I was the only RSO and had 28 shooters on the line at one time. I had one grandfather trying to show his grandson something about his new rifle while folks were down range. I just went over and firmly told them to lay the gun down and step back. The just calmy exlpained why. No one was offended no foul just a honest mistake. No other problems is 6 hours so not a bad day.
 
I stand by my assertion though that overemphasis on RO commands, or any "routine" tends to make every other shooter, or usually command-taker shut off their brain. Wouldn't be half surprised if the RO doesn't see someone downrange and calls the range as hot again ... half the people open fire, just because they're on autopilot.
Not at all. USPSA has global, standardized range commands and it does the opposite. It makes it clear to everyone when they should or should not be doing something.
When exactly does the RO call for a cease fire?
Every 15-25 minutes or when a couple people want to set/get targets.
 
Not at all. USPSA has global, standardized range commands and it does the opposite. It makes it clear to everyone when they should or should not be doing something.

There is a bit of a difference between a line of shooters of mixed skillsets, ages, and most importantly intensity and a USPSA match. I'm sure we've all been there, after a long day, at the range plinking away and just kind of at Zen, wasting away a brick of .22 and time.
Not the same mindset as a USPSA match, where your nerves are up, you're hypervigilant, etc. Not to mention that last I checked a USPSA match doesn't have up to 28 (highest count I've seen yet) on one line shooting for different purposes.

Treating the average firing line like a USPSA match would be interesting to see, and I do mean in that trainwreck-can't-look-away type.
 
Every (organized) range I can remember firing on (mostly military) had/have standardized range commands.

If cease fire is called (which can be called by anyone, not just the RSO), shooters stop firing and wait for further instruction.
 
While all that is nice, sometimes there are discrepancies to the particulars. For instance, I don't leave actions open. It lets crap get in them. Also, I'll often load some mags, and insert one in a gun for shooting after my current gun. Note that I, categorically, did NOT say chamber a round, so all my guns are always completely safe until I pick one up and chamber a round.
That seemed to be a response to my post about opening the guns action when people go downrange. I stand by that. I also think that the excuse for not wanting to leave your gun in a condition that is not only safe, but shows folks at a distance that they are as well, because you might get crap in the gun, is simply ludicrous. I am not at all surprised that you have a problem with RO's who insist on safety.

In Benchrest competition we not only opened actions, but we removed the bolts. No one ever went downrange without every single bolt removed, ever.

Some people are simple too casual about safety. :)
 
Removing the bolt?!

That sounds kinda odd to me, to be honest. what is next? Lock it up in your (mandatory) portable safe anytime a ceasefire is called?
 
In Benchrest competition we not only opened actions, but we removed the bolts. No one ever went downrange without every single bolt removed, ever.

My club requires ECIs.

Some people are simple too casual about safety.

We escort about six "casuals" off the range each year.
 
[Nushif, the Protektor Model company in PA makes a nice leather 'Rifle Bolt Sheath' that is used in benchrest circles]

Right now, I am in the process of trying to improve range communication for my club. I am very grateful to all who share their experiences and POVs here. The discussions and disagreements are useful too.

There is more to this than I had first considered. Am thinking that for general rifle and handgun shooting, something simple is most likely to be respected consistently = an increase in overall safety.

For activity specific events, such as formal practices or matches in IPSC, Silhouette, Trap, etc., then whatever are that sport's standard rules is the way to go. Participants in organized competitions practice, imo, very safe gun handling whether there is a RSO around or not.

More descriptions of how your club or range goes about dealing with the fundamentals of going hot and cold would be appreciated.
 
Some of the clubs I have shot at require chamber flags. The range I work at does not require them. I use them out of habit and think they are a good idea. It is easier for the RSO to just look down the firing line and see a row of orange or yellow plastic flags sticking up than to walk the line to visually check each station.

Some guns can't use a flag and that is fine but for about a buck apeice flags are cheap insurance.
 
It isn't rocket surgery, if you need a RSO for basic "hot range" and "cold range" then maybe you need a less crowded club or better range buddies.

No kidding.........

Goin' Hot! was frequently heard as was "Get your ears on, Fire in the hole!"

Isn't rocket science, just common sense
 
in the army "range is hot" is a general statement that live fire has started at that range. "range is cold" means live fire has stopped for that day or the range is shut down for whatever reason. when a fireing interation starts the command "range is NOT clear" is givin. after the fireing interation and the safetys show "clear" the "range is clear" is givin.
 
Removing the bolt?!

That sounds kinda odd to me, to be honest.
I was surprised at first, but hey, you can't get shot with a gun with no bolt. The guns are left on rests pointed dead at the target when people are pulling targets. They have 2 ounce triggers. Folks would still be sitting at the benches by their guns. I understood right away why it was done. We used a bolt sheath to carry it around. It becomes second nature. They would call cease fire, then call remove bolts, & only when the RO was positive all bolts were removed, the target crew would go downrange.
 
Sure ... You also can not get shot with a gun without ammunition. Or trigger. Or firing pin, but that does not mean the average competition needs you to detail strip your gun before you are allowed to change a target.
I should delete this though. Safe people may get ideas and make me do a starting and ending round count next time I go to a range, pat me down for brass and tell me how much ammunition I get to put in my magazine, as a private shooter. 8)
 
Nushif it seems you have a little problem with RSO's

I seem to recall a post of your when you had a run in with one.

Some of the other post against RSO I don't understand.


The nice thing about having a RSO on the range.

When I am shooting I am trying to focus on what I am doing not the guy beside me.

If a problem arises on the range its up to the RSO to deal with it not patrons of the range.

The RSO is there to watch over the safety of the range and the folks shooting their. To make sure no one is messing with firearms while others are down range. Loaded magazines laying on the bench are one thing. Having a loaded magazine in a firearm laying there pointed down range is completely unacceptable. Even if it is pointing skyward in a rack. NOGO I would warn that person once. The next time I would escort them off of the range.

No it is not the responsibilty of the RSO to limit your rate of fire or how you are shooting. Now if like Saturday I have two young shooters who are blowing through mags as fast as possible. If there is not a single hole in the target at 10 yards. Yes like it or not I am going to stop you. I told the young men to slow down and hit the dang target. Accuracy is part of safety and yes I will enforce that.

RSO are there for the better of everyone on the range.

As far as reloads go it depends on the range you shoot at and their by-laws. If the by-laws state no reloads then it means no reloads. Don't like it build your own range or buy some land.

RSO are in place to make sure everyone has a good time and does it safely. I do not see what the problem with that is.


As far as the god complex goes I have met plenty and it is not acceptable.
A RSO has no right to lay a hand on you or your weapon. To touch any of your belongings for that matter. If they are doing this they need to be reported to the range master or the committee who runs the range. Then they need to be removed from serving in the capacity.

If you are just upset because someone dare tell you to cease fire. Grow up and get over yourself and quit acting like the man has his boot on your neck.
 
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I have personally never heard of cold and hot at the range until I saw a video of the Secret Service shooting some popups for target requisition speed and another one by the New York State Police showing the power of a 50 caliber rifle. Until those two times, I NEVER heard anyone say the range is HOT.

When I grew up going to the range as a kid, it was "Ready on the right? -- ready on the left? -- Commence Firing!"

Then, when time to stop "Cease-Fire, open all bolts, secure all weapons!"

Whenever I go to the range, I like to be alone, that way I don't have to wait for people to walk out 100 or 200 yards to retrieve their target, change target, walk out to see if a shot had hit or not, etc. If there is anyone else there, I am typically the one who is kind of the "spokeperson" if you will, and I am not so orderly as ready on the right, ready on the left, however I do shout "are you ready?" - or, "is it OK to shoot now, I am about to take a shot?" While shooting, I try to be observant of what is going on with the other person/people, and they are typically on my right, as I tend to pick a middle to left bench and anyone there or showing up naturally tend to set up, perhaps five to ten benches down, to my right.

Any way you look at it, commands should be simple enough for those who have never heard commands and who are not used to how to treat a range when other persons/groups are present and all are firing or about to fire.

It makes no difference what is said, it could even be all hand motions, just as long as everyone is ON THE SAME PAGE!

Only once, a few years ago, some guy way over to my right, there with his family, was walking out to 25 yards to get his target while I was to the left about ten benches or so, shooting my target at 50 yards. He never yelled, he never asked, nothing. Had he said something I would have stopped shooting, however, the way he acted, it was like he owns the place and is not going to be told what to do. It was like, I was concentrating on working up my magnum pistol loads and I suddenly happened to notice him nonchalantly walking out to look and retrieve his targets. I asked if he wanted me to stop first, and he shrugged his shoulders. Some bumkin, I suppose.

I packed up my stuff and told them to enjoy the rest of their shooting. I never saw him again.
 
The problem with the concept of an RSO is that it's someone regulating your shooting experience. Part of exercising the right to bear arms is the freedom to do it your way. As we can see with the current government, while a little authority may be fine, it never stays that way.

For instance, why can't you touch a gun while people are down range? What if I have enough targets up and I want to load mags? I don't need others to tell me how to be safe, nor the proper handling of my gun. Plus, if I were peacefully loading mags and someone came and SHOUTED at me, that would be bad. And, heaven forbid actually grab anything of mine; there's no way that could ever end well.

Yes, there are morons out there, but, at least 50% of the time, it's the range officer who is said moron. You don't need to clear chamber, remove bolt or whatever, there's a reason the rack is there, put the gun in it and be safe. The utter stupidity of leaving a gun, in any condition, pointed downrange when people are immediately going there, is beyond me. Point. It. Elsewhere.

Thank God that most ranges don't have range officers. It is absolutely systemic of the problem with America that gun clubs can't even trust people to safely use guns on their own, but every one of them cries about governmental invasion of their lives. Hypocrites.

And usually, on range officer ranges, there is the presence of one or more of the Stupid Rules. We've all seen them before, they're rules like this:

-Must wait 2 seconds between each shot.
-Must shoot using the bench.
-Cannot shoot buckshot or slugs.
-Cannot load more than 5 rounds into a magazine.
-Cannot shoot a rifle any closer than 100 yards, nor a pistol any closer than 25, or sometimes further than 25, or maybe even both.
-Cannot shoot any rifle bigger than .30 cal or pistol bigger than 9mm.

It just goes on and on.
 
The problem with the concept of an RSO is that it's someone regulating your shooting experience. Part of exercising the right to bear arms is the freedom to do it your way. As we can see with the current government, while a little authority may be fine, it never stays that way.
do you shoot at federal government ranges?
the range is not the federal government in most cases, you know.

Not to imply a need for a RSO, I don't have or want one at my range and don't find it that hard to establish a firing line with 2-8 shooters (I think eight is the most I've seen out there for informal non-event shooting)

You don't need to clear chamber, remove bolt or whatever, there's a reason the rack is there, put the gun in it and be safe. The utter stupidity of leaving a gun, in any condition, pointed downrange when people are immediately going there, is beyond me. Point. It. Elsewhere.
Now this assumes a rack.
Most ranges don't have a rack, some don't even have benches. I don't see the need for the bolt out, but action open and maybe a chamber flag can't hurt - if you have a rack then use it, but the rest of us don't.
In a perfect world we could all leave our weaponry in a clearing barrel behind a sound baffle when going downrange ... until then obviously disabled by opening the action and removing ammo doesn't hurt.
 
When the "line is cold" command is called, guns are left with magazines removed, the action open, and an open bolt indicator with an orange or yellow flag inserted, so anyone can see at a glance that the guns are in a safe condition. Until all shooters are back from downrange, nobody touches a gun. Anybody who fiddles with their gun, or starts loading magazines while other people are down range, will be asked to leave; anybody who sticks a loaded magazine in a gun while others are downrange will be asked to leave immediately.
 
I will allow folks to load mags while waiting for others to return to the firing line. This does not require handling the gun.

It's just common courtesy what the heck is wrong with that.

I have worked for 5 gun clubs and all of them had a little list of by-laws. Each and every year each club had at least 3-5 members review the by-laws. That panel of 3-5 members who could not review the by-laws two years in a row. This panel could make proposed ammendments to the by-laws which were then voted on by the whole of body of members who bothered to show up to the meeting. Just like any organization those who complain the most do the least.

Some of the by-laws have to do with NRA sponorship others have to do with insurance. Even other have to do with local ordinance's and cannot be changed. If you have a problem with your ranges by-laws and rules speak the heck up and get involved or shut the heck up and find somewhere else to shoot. Like I said there is land for sale all over this great country. Perhaps you can find some and shoot on your own place where the man is keeping you down.

How long does it take to insert a mag into your firearm once the range has been cleared and declared hot again. Why in gods name do you need to insert a loaded mag into your gun before that time. Chambered or not?? My lord the overzelous RSO is delaying your trigger time by at least 2 1/2 seconds. I can see why they are such a bother.:barf:
 
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My local outdoor range is usually devoid of activity. Of course, I do alot of shooting in winter and in bad weather. If I see more than two people there when I drive by, I just shoot behind my house and hope my neighbors don't call the cops. So far, they have not. Sometimes I practice with my .22 in the woods. Yup.
 
What I am trying to get across.

It is harder than heck in this day and age to have ranges in the first place.

Someone decides to build there home a mile away from a range and then decides that it should be shut down because it interfers with there tea and crumpets.

Insurance rates are through the roof

EPA will clear cut a forest for enough paper to write up a enviromental impact study on how your poisoning something or other.

No one take repsonsibily for there own actions. Its always someone else's fault.


The fact is having RSO at the range.

Decreases insurance premiums
Decreases liabilty
Allows that range to hold sanctioned events and actually make money for a change.
Allows opportunities for teaching and learning like holding APPLESEED events
Lets the patrons of the range enjoy shooting instead of playing range officer.

There are a couple ranges I shoot at that I can't shoot my Contender or Encore handgun past 25 yards. Heck they are chambered in .35 rem, .22-250, and .308 win these belong on the 200 yard line not the 25 yard line. Yet is the rule of that range for whatever reason it is what it is. I don't agree with it but hey I just don't take those guns to that range.

There is no acceptable reason for a RSO to have a god complex. Yet if that RSO is just enforcing the by-laws of that range just go with it. Try to understand why its the rule instead of taking it as a personal attack.

I have the same problem with being a cub scout leader and a hunter ed instructor. People are quick to judge without understanding why. Like Kansas law says you have to be 11 years old or older to take Hunter Ed. I didn't write the law but if you want your 10 year old to take the class. Well they can attend but I can't issue a certificate untill they take it at the age of 11.

I am sorry to be blunt I have just had this argument way to many times with way to many people. Folks that volunteer get crapped on for trying to make things better.
 
Alright, let's put up some base facts before I continue:

In the past five years the only time I have been at a range that even had Range Officers was when I was with the military. And at all of those times I was either the Range Officer or the XO.

That being said, I am quite aware of how unsafe novice or unwilling shooters can be.
So, stuff like this is simply uncalled for:

Nushif it seems you have a little problem with RSO's

I seem to recall a post of your when you had a run in with one.

[...]

If you are just upset because someone dare tell you to cease fire. Grow up and get over yourself and quit acting like the man has his boot on your neck.

As such, I don't recall ever having a run-in with one. Because while my personality may be complex, I don't fight with myself. Often.

Here is where my problem comes in with some of the "safety" practices I hear preached very often here.

The RSO, the "Range Safety Officer" is still very much a human. As such their judgement of what is safe or not safe depends on a lot of factors that have *nothing* to do with your behavior or how safe it is.

While I'm sure the largest part of ROs are courteous, knowledgeable and even handed, take for example ROs who think nobody ought to have thirty rounds in a magazine. Are you going to tell me, that they are really going to sit there and not throw you off a range for practicing a fast follow-up shot with your M4? Especially if they have a mild headache?

Or for instance the RO who thinks that any gun older than ten years can't possibly be in good shape. Will they let you do a mad minute with an Enfield? How about a dedicated hunter? How about someone who doesn't like big bore guns?

My point is that these ROs as a whole are human and not infallible by any means. This means that their word isn't gospel, ever. Would I simply tell an RO "No" about ceasing fire? Of course not, why would I? But dare I question the RO who is so caught up in reading text off the wooden pillar next to his PA for the threehundreth time today? Yes!

That is where there needs to be a stronger emphasis on INDIVIDUAL SAFETY, so that the RO isn't so taxed with twenty-eight people on a range and forced to micromanage all of them, because they dropped their thinking hats and are drones on command, to a guy who is stressed out and overseeing the every small action of over two dozen people!

I feel, for some odd reason, that an RO should have better things to watch out for than the removed bolts, removed slides and dismantled guns of the entire line. I'd much rather my NCOs worry about PVT Soandso who keeps flagging his buddy than chasing thirty experienced soldiers behind an arbitrary line in the sand for their own "safety" with their assigned weapon.

I'm not "hatin' on the RO" ... what I'm doing is pointing out, that with a truly unsafe shooter, no amount of bolt removal, thirty second shot rules, one round per magazine rule or any such measures address the problem: The guy behind the trigger.

In my ideal world everyone mildly polices each other and themselves, leaves well enough alone and the RO can actually take aside an unsafe shooter and give them quality instruction. But in the world of standardized commands, warning signs, standardized commands, restrictive measures that make 90% of ranges unusable for 90% of the shooting world are the easier solution, it seems.
 
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