Confusing Range Commands

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For instance, I don't leave actions open. It lets crap get in them. Also, I'll often load some mags, and insert one in a gun for shooting after my current gun. Note that I, categorically, did NOT say chamber a round, so all my guns are always completely safe until I pick one up and chamber a round.
There's a difference between a gun with a loaded mag, in a rack, pointing safely UP, then a gun with the action open pointing downrange at people changing targets. Personally, I don't want even an unloaded gun pointed at me. Also, when a range goes down, people aren't handling guns; they're changing targets.
For instance, why can't you touch a gun while people are down range? What if I have enough targets up and I want to load mags?

The preceding behavior during a cease fire will get you kicked off any organized shooting range I've ever been to. The cardinal rules during a cease fire are that: all firearms are completely unloaded; all actions are open; nobody handles (touches) any firearms; fully cased firearms may be placed on or removed from the line, but not uncased and not handled. These have redundancy just like the universal 4 rules of gun safety have redundancy.

I don't need others to tell me how to be safe, nor the proper handling of my gun.

Apparently you do from what you've posted.

that would be bad. And, heaven forbid actually grab anything of mine; there's no way that could ever end well.

If you show up at any range I'm present at, and insert a loaded magazine into a rifle during a cease fire, I am going to command you to stop, and if you don't, I am going to unload your rifle. You will be kicked out and most probably banned from coming back to that range. I'm sure that wasn't the "bad ending" your bravado inferred, but that's what's going to happen. Don't like it? Learn to follow the rules like everyone else.
 
Seems we're mixing up a whole bunch of our individual disagreements with various range rules with the simple question of how to make the line safe to go downrange.

...

It is always a very wise idea to read and understand the basic procedural rules of any range you might join or visit to make sure that those rules don't conflict with the kind of shooting you want to do.

Does the range allow draw from the holster? Does the range allow very close, or very far, shooting with various kinds of firearms? Does the range have some kind of capacity or maximum loading rule? Does the range have fixed firing points or does it provide bays for "practical" shooting exercises? And so on. Figure this stuff out before you go -- or before you sit down and start shooting, at least.

There's no reason to frustrate yourself -- and greatly worry/annoy the guys charged with range safety -- by attending a range that doesn't fit your desired shooting discipline.

If you feel the need to try and change those rules, take it up with the governing body of that range. DO NOT stand there like a goon and argue with the RSO about the rules the range owner has put in place. He's bound buy them just like you are.

...

As far as range hot and cold commands go, swallow your bull-headedness and do what the RSO says! They have a carefully determined way of ensuring that everyone leaves with no more holes than they came with. They've figured out what works for their facility, and what their officers are trained to look for so they can keep the "newbie" on your left and "rambo" on your right from hurting themselves, or you ... and to help you avoid an inadvertent lapse that might hurt someone else. LET THEM DO THEIR JOB.

Here's the thing: If you let them do their job, you can concentrate on your shooting with a somewhat diminished need to be personally inspecting what every other shooter on the line is doing just to make sure you don't end up shot. Of course you must remain aware and vigilant -- it is YOUR duty to call "STOP!" and "CEASE FIRE!" the instant you see anything dangerous happen -- just as it is the duty of everyone on the line. You are responsible for safety, but you can rest some of that burden on the shoulders of the GOOD folks who give up their time to carry part of that load for you.

(Unless you're diverting the RSO's attention from the line while you squawk and squabble like a wet hen because you're afraid you might get "crud" in the action of your gun if you leave it open for 5 minutes! Give me a BREAK! :rolleyes:)

My point is that these ROs as a whole are human and not infallible by any means. This means that their word isn't gospel, ever.
When you are on a live firing line, with real weapons that can kill someone dead forever with a split-second lapse in judgment -- THEIR WORD IS GOSPEL. Sit down, swallow your gall, and do what the RSO said, like an ADULT.

If you have a problem with the instructions the RSO is giving, take it up LATER with the governing body of the range facility. Do NOT act like a child, squalling with the range officer and hogging up his attention over some petty issue (...but I don't WANT to leave my bolt open!...:fire:) while he's trying to make sure everyone leaves alive, no ambulances are needed, no lawsuits are being launched, and the range can stay open for the next day, the next year, and the next generation.

That is where there needs to be a stronger emphasis on INDIVIDUAL SAFETY, so that the RO isn't so taxed with twenty-eight people on a range and forced to micromanage all of them, because they dropped their thinking hats and are drones on command, to a guy who is stressed out and overseeing the every small action of over two dozen people!
I do not disagree at all that individual safety is a must. I don't know how you're making the leap from, "Cease fire, unload, open bolts, no handling of firearms, the range is COLD," to "We're all mindless drones who will be LESS safe because someone is making sure we stay safe." That is beyond all logic. Might as well say that, because stop signs and traffic lights exist, we're all unsafe drivers with no ability to decide how to operate a car safely.

Checking a firing line for open bolts or chamber flags is NOT in any way micromanaging. That's just prudent safety practices.

I feel, for some odd reason, that an RO should have better things to watch out for than the removed bolts, removed slides and dismantled guns of the entire line.
But this is exactly how safety is DONE. Day in and day out, for every shooter on the line, always. That's how folks are kept from making the little compounded errors in practice or judgment that cause DEATH ... like the permanent, no-coming-back-from-it kind.

I'd much rather my NCOs worry about PVT Soandso who keeps flagging his buddy than chasing thirty experienced soldiers behind an arbitrary line in the sand for their own "safety" with their assigned weapon.
Of course. Because YOU (or WE) are very safe and knowledgeable shooters who don't make mistakes. I trust you would never, ever have a "brain fart" or moment of distraction that could endanger anyone. Really, I do. But I don't trust the guy on your right, or on your left, or the one in the middle, either. ;) Why? Because I have been the guy on the line and I know that errors and forgetfulness happen -- to me, or to the guy next to me -- and I appreciate the extra bit of protection that comes from having an experienced extra set of eyes on every gun to double-check that I don't slip up, and neither does the guy on my left or on my right.

If you cannot be "big" enough to accept this exceedingly minor intrusion into your absolute freedom of action -- please do not come to a firing range and disturb those who can. Find a bit of desert land or wilderness where you can really just do whatever you like without any possibility of harming anyone, and no one will tell you what to do with your gun.

But if you come to a formal firing range, "put on your big-boy pants" as they say, and accept and follow instructions like a MAN.

(...or woman, as the case may be.)
 
When the "line is cold" command is called, guns are left with magazines removed, the action open, and an open bolt indicator with an orange or yellow flag inserted, so anyone can see at a glance that the guns are in a safe condition. Until all shooters are back from downrange, nobody touches a gun. Anybody who fiddles with their gun, or starts loading magazines while other people are down range, will be asked to leave; anybody who sticks a loaded magazine in a gun while others are downrange will be asked to leave immediately.

How does sitting behind the line loading mags endanger anyone?

When folks go downrange, some of us find that to be the perfect time to run a few patches down the bore - not going to hurt anyone that way either and keeps the timing for all in better sync. I have also sat and stared through my spotting scope, checking shot placement and making notes - again, no danger to anyone, but I am not behind some magical line.

Safety is paramount, but so is common sense
 
How does sitting behind the line loading mags endanger anyone?
It doesn't. Most ranges allow that. Take the mags with you as you step away from the guns and most ranges would have no problem. If they do, say, "ok," comply, and decide if that's a restriction you can live with before you come next time.

When folks go downrange, some of us find that to be the perfect time to run a few patches down the bore - not going to hurt anyone that way either and keeps the timing for all in better sync. I have also sat and stared through my spotting scope, checking shot placement and making notes - again, no danger to anyone, but I am not behind some magical line.
This would make me very, very nervous. If I'm down range pasting targets, I can't see WHAT you're doing back 100-200 yds away. Of course, because it's YOU and you're very VERY good, I would trust you. But if I don't know you, you might be the kind of yahoo that would take things another step farther.

So, it is common to ask that everyone, from the grand old gentlemen who know what they're doing to the newbie who just unboxed his new gun, step away from the guns and don't handle them while folks are downrange.

I know you are special. But the guy next to you might be less special, and he might hurt someone. Play along and follow the rules so everyone feels, and IS, as safe as they can be.

Now, if your home range has worked out their safety practices so that if your bolt is removed you may handle firearms when others are downrange, so be it. (I've never heard of one that does allow this ... and on an informal range I'd be sitting out the session until you finished for the day.) But don't give the RSOs headaches because you don't like the way their range chooses to handle safety issues. If you can wait until folks have returned to the line to shoot another string, you can wait to clean your rifle or 'scope your target. Don't be in such a self-important hurry that you cause other folks stress, fear, or worry -- or get yourself kicked off the line.

Safety is paramount, but so is common sense
Common sense works great until someone's idea of common sense isn't quite a sensical as they thought. We've got stories ALL the time here of folks who felt it was completely sensical to go down range and change their targets (or send their CHILDREN downrange to do so! :fire:) while others were shooting.

We all hope that our common sense range habits are above reproach and above needing to follow multi-layered redundant safety practices. But a shooting range open to more than one person needs to protect and shepherd the actions of the shooter with the least skills and understanding. And it is our job as responsible, adult, mature shooters to work with the procedures that the range sets up which keep the shooters safe and the range open -- allowing us the pleasure of continuing to use that facility.
 
Posted by Kliegl: For instance, why can't you touch a gun while people are down range?

Posted by oneounceload: When folks go downrange, some of us find that to be the perfect time to run a few patches down the bore - not going to hurt anyone that way either and keeps the timing for all in better sync.
Most of us do not.

The problem is that it is not immediately obvious whether someone is running patches through a bore or doing something unsafe that must be dealt with immediately.

At the outdoor ranges where I shoot, and in fact at all of the ranges at which I have ever shot in my life, that kind of behavior will get one expelled permanently, perhaps after a warning.

And I want 'em gone.

Posted by Kliegl: What if I have enough targets up and I want to load mags?

Some ranges do have areas in which one can safely do that while others are firing or changing targets.

Part of exercising the right to bear arms is the freedom to do it your way.
Not if one handles a firearm in such a manner that one creates undue risk to others.

I don't need others to tell me how to be safe, nor the proper handling of my gun.
That would seem to be in question, given your question "why can't you touch a gun while people are down range?".

Plus, if I were peacefully loading mags and someone came and SHOUTED at me, that would be bad.
What are you implying?
 
How does sitting behind the line loading mags endanger anyone?
I hesitate to jump into this spirited debate, but I'd like to point out that some of these rules have their origins in more than the desire for a RSO to act out their innermost JBT fantasies. For example, range rules that prohibit the use or movement of equipment during a cease-fire serve not only to ensure that nobody does anything unsafe but also help ensure that every shooter's kit is not molested or stolen while they are 100+ yards away hanging a new target.

One local range that I frequent has at least one theft attempt every year - all during cease fires when the owner of said kit has stepped away from their gear.

Plus, if I were peacefully loading mags and someone came and SHOUTED at me, that would be bad.
There is one local range here in the DFW area that I will not frequent on the weekends because of the poor behavior of one of the four (4) RSO's on duty. He tends towards hysteria and shouting a lot more than I think is needed, and in general seems emotionally overwrought. That doesn't mean that the range is incorrect in its rules - it just means that I don't cotton to the manner in which this RSO manages the crowds. Having said that, this range sees upward of 400 shooters per weekend day and many of those shooters are quite, um, casual in their understanding of range and firearm safety.

And so I just shoot somewhere else on the weekends and only shoot there on the weekdays. Their house, their rules, their staff.
 
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And, to reiterate the age-old saying... if you don't like the way they do it, (and you can't change the policies through the proper channels), find another range or start your own range and make up your own rules.

Neither the world, nor any range owner, owes it to you to be allowed to do whatever you want, however you want, with only those restrictions you agree to follow.

A mature shooter considers range rules just like the physical terrain, the weather, the target, the course-of-fire specifications (in a match), etc. -- all part of the challenge of shooting. Accommodate them so they can accommodate you.
 
Walkalong said:
Our range only has a RO during competitions. Other than that we communicate with each other. We are all responsible for unloading/opening the action of guns before going downrange. Sometimes that is a bit "awkward" when an idiot is present, but everyone understands "Hot" and "Cold". Some of them just don't seem to understand what a "safe" gun is. Arghhh..


Pretty much the same at my club. One of us will yell - The range is hot! Eyes and ears! for the benefit of those nearby but not shooting. Hot and cold is pretty ubiquitous anywhere I've ever been.

Our By-laws allow certain groups to run hot ranges at my club, meaning anyone not actually shooting can have a loaded firearm on their person. But guns stay holstered, or slung. Essentially, no one handles a firearm while someone's downwange. Works pretty well for those of us in a class or training event.

At IDPA matches or when the general public comes in, we all unload, clear, and either holster the firearm or bench it and step away from them.


Nushif,

Get over yourself.
 
Posed by rbernie: For example, range rules that prohibit the use or movement of equipment during a cease-fire serve not only to ensure that nobody does anything unsafe but also help ensure that every shooter's kit is not molested or stolen while they are 100+ yards away hanging a new target.
Excellent point!
 
The range I shot at mostly out West was a city park - NO range officer, no controls - just folks communicating with each other when the range was hot or cold - everyone understood what nods, hand waves, etc. meant - if you wanted to go check targets, you stepped back and sat on the back ledge and waited - everyone was courteous enough towards one another. All types of folks, all types of guns, all types of shooting - one common goal was courtesy and respect to all - it worked without all of the hyperbole seen today........wonder why?

In fact I have been downrange when someone fired shots - they were with their RSO from the pistol range and were warming up with double taps on the rifle side - so much for that RSO and safety

Us folks on the rifle side never had an issue - the vandalism and jackasses seem to come out late at night to cause damage
 
When there is a match or class going and everyone is doing the same thing, then we have and RSO giving range commmands. At other times, the members police themselves and it's up to them to communicate with each other/be courteous when people want to set targets, etc.

We use the hot/cold system and reserve "CEASE FIRE" for emergencies. All this is explained in the orientation meeting, and all rules are posted at the range.

Ready? --> Range is Hot! --> Clear? --> Range is Cold! --> Ready? ... and so on...

Ready?: Everyone checks eyes and ears, looks downrange, if not ready or someone is downrage say "Not Ready"

Range is Hot!: You may load and commence firing. You may case or uncase your gun at the firing line. No one allowed beyond the firing line for any reason.

Clear?: Not a command, basically you are asking permission to go downrange. If someone wants to shoot a few more, then the shooters will need to work it out and be courteous. When all have fired their last shot and the action is open and confirmed empty they call back "clear." When all stations have confirmed "clear" the "Range is Cold" command is given.

Range is Cold!: All magazines are out, actions are open, chambers are empty. No one is to touch or handle a firearm for any reason while the line is cold. Do not case or uncase any firearms. Do not adjust sights or scopes. This is the time to post your target or clean up/police brass if you are arriving/leaving. Pistols in holsters are considered safe.

Seems to work pretty well. If you are the type to shoot 5 shots on each target and you are shooting with someone who is putting 50 rounds on each target, then have a little courtesy (it goes both ways) and post multiple targets, and get yourself a spotting scope.
 
The simple fact is that guns don't go off if they're not being handled and the mistake can't happen if the item isn't touched.

The fact that "you" as an individual may be thoughtful and careful and considerate of others doesn't negate the fact that "I" may be less careful.

These absolute rules, don't touch the weapon at all for any reason, are because of the catastrophic consequences of a failure if I fail to handle the weapon each and every time without distraction and fully focused on clearing the weapon before handling. Since we know these accidents do occur we know that failures to handle safely occur.

Why is my convenience more important than your safety? Or put another way, why is my convenience more important than your life?
 
DEAF/Deaf HOHI Shooters..!!

No one here has brought up (or should I say answered), how one handles shooters who are DEAF/Deaf HOHI as to range commands and/or wearing hearing protection.

I know what I do, but before revealing what that is, I'm curious as to what YOU do.

Single Action Six
 
I have probably shot at over a couple hundred different ranges in my 50 plus years shooting competitively (rifle and shotgun and 10M air pistol & rifle) and just about everyone is the same regarding range commands but I've only heard hot/cold in say the last fifteen years or so and them infrequently...Even open/closed weren't that popular until about twenty odd years ago

Cease fire, place guns with actions open (or make safe etc.), clear right/left, left proceed to targets, right proceed to targets...Upon return, check downrange and ask if everyone has returned, ready right/left, commence firing...Mexico City during the '68 Olympics they had the same commands but just in Spanish and at ranges in Norway, France, Germany, Israel and Italy in their native language and sometimes followed by English if they had a lot of competitors from English speaking countries.

Since I shoot a lot of benchrest and use unlimited class guns--some weighing 100+ lbs, I can not and will not remove the gun from the bench or from pointing downrange--that's what the action flag and/or removed bolt does...also while some are at the targets, I/we will run a patch through the barrel but then we're standing in front of the gun/bench.

You'll also see some guys pull out portable reloading presses and reload a number of empty brass with the same or different loads to match climatic conditions they hadn't anticipated...One guy uses a padded piano bench to shoot from and he stores his accessories in there--he'll take his little folding stool, set it up, open the piano bench and use that to reload his brass.

As to racking a gun, maybe 15% of the ranges had single racks available at the end of the bench and maybe 20% more had some kind of multi rack for five/ten guns about ten/fifteen paces back...The reason that mags are not allowed in the guns, in the racks is they might not be unloaded, fall over and accidentally go off...In California, where the semi auto rifle mags have to be pinned in place, bolts had to be locked back and a flag or other safety device inserted into the barrel, action and/or chamber.

The ranges aren't out to restrict your choice of guns/ammo but they have to protect themselves against frivolous lawsuits, to meet insurance requirements or just to protect their equipment from having to be replaced, frequently -- cost.

I have NEVER EVER heard of a range that didn't allow reloads, EVER, anywhere--unless;

I have heard of no FMJs or AP (Armour Piercing) because they bang up the equipment too much, too quickly, especially on metal pop-ups or the berms/backstops cannot handle the loads--i.e. concern for innocent bystanders walking outside the indoor range...Of course no guns over a certain calibre since the backstops or equipment won't handle it--I have to shoot the .470 NE, .476 WR etc. at the farm where I have a proper regulator's (standing) bench...My friend has a 100M rimfire only range--bench, silhouettes, multi positions--and he enforces it...His silhouettes can't handle .17 HMR or .22 WRM--they will go clean through them or dent them but you can use those shells on all the target stands but nothing heavier, no centerfire whatsoever, as his berms won't handle it...If you want to give him $350 for a 40 pc. set of silhouettes, have fun with your .17 HM2, etc.

Some places have Federal or State/Provincial laws that prevent the use of detachable mags of greater capacity then X even if a rimfire (excluding tube feed) so they would restrict your capacity that way.

I have heard no fully automatic guns allowed--noise concerns, flying brass and/or local ordinances against them and rapid fire of semi autos with 25/30/40/50 round mags may be misconstrued as such--legal hassles...Other then for just the heck with it, what does it accomplish, really? C'mon, what realistic scenarios would require you to empty a 30 round clip in 10 seconds.

Some clubs require you to position a screen beside the bench or have a bullet catcher installed if you're going to be shooting semi/full auto...Ask the ladies what joy there is in having a hot shell fall into their cleavage or you must have at least two (2) benches between you and the other shooters, so if it gets crowded you have to stop or switch guns.

Most places couldn't give a crap about how long you're at your spot but if it gets really busy, I'll pack my BR or BPCR stuff up and probably leave or maybe switch guns--not because I'm such a terrifically nice guy, I just don't want to be bothered answering all the questions about the equipment and turning down requests to shoot the guns...Also, most shooters don't enjoy the smell of blackpowder smoke clouds blowing in their faces.

Range/Safety Officers are there for a reason--mostly for insurance purposes--SAFETY...Safety of you and the other shooters...Possibly to instruct novices in the proper usage of their firearms and etiquette but mainly safety...What's the first gun rule? "Consider all guns loaded all the time and act accordingly"...I couldn't care less if you were the top Olympic shooter in the world, you holding a gun to your shoulder and aiming downrange will get you kicked out very quickly for a second offence--I don't care if you're just looking at the targets with your scope--get a damn spotting scope, that what they're there for.

I saw one guy doing everything that you shouldn't and refused to leave--he got arrested and booked for attempted murder...I saw another arsehat flagrantly abusing his privileges and drinking alcohol (from a Coke can), get slightly drunk and was greeted with the RO and a couple of other patrons with handguns drawn and had his guns confiscated (until he sobered up) and banned for life and he was the club's vice president or a board member, something like that...He was waving a loaded AR10 around with his finger in the trigger guard and to make a point would point it at you--I got down behind the concrete bench frame and finished off my logbook entries until he was disarmed (a Glock to the side of the head works well) and escorted out.
 
Now, that last one is a decent reply.

I think, myself, I'll pass from any more comments in this thread, other than noting
the irony of being talked down to by 4 moderators (people who have been given a little bit of authority) on a subject of over-control / being talked down to by range officers (people that have been given a little bit of authority.) Of course, this comment will probably get removed....
 
You are passing because you have no viable answer to several people pointing out how unsafe and even cavalier your posted behavior is concerning something where death can be the consequence.
 
SeekHer said:
I have probably shot at over a couple hundred different ranges in my 50 plus years shooting competitively (rifle and shotgun and 10M air pistol & rifle) and just about everyone is the same regarding range commands but I've only heard hot/cold in say the last fifteen years or so and them infrequently...Even open/closed weren't that popular until about twenty odd years ago

I can remember being at Lejeune 20 years ago using hot/cold range lingo. Used it on the firing lines at the machinegun ranges. Used it over the radio to call the range status into HQ. The "ready on the right? Ready on the left? All ready . . . " commands were much more perfunctory rituals that we did during formal qualifications.

Hot and cold ranges was the lingo I saw used in the Fleet.


SeekHer said:
I have NEVER EVER heard of a range that didn't allow reloads, EVER, anywhere--unless . . .

I have. I've been to one or two for-profit ranges, usually operated in conjunction with a retail gun shop, that only let you use ammo they sold you.

And Sig Academy went to totally lead-free ammo some years ago. When they were faced with the cost of cleaning their indoor range from lead dust contamination, they demolished it and built a new one. The cost of constructing a new range was less than the clean up of the existing one. They now prohibit anything but totally lead-free ammo in it.
 
I think, myself, I'll pass from any more comments in this thread, other than noting
the irony of being talked down to by 4 moderators (people who have been given a little bit of authority) on a subject of over-control / being talked down to by range officers (people that have been given a little bit of authority.) Of course, this comment will probably get removed....
You're being corrected because you are totally off base on the basic protocols of firearms and range safety and you've tried to justify behavior that is totally unacceptable at any range.

It is true that being a forum moderator alone does not confer any legitimate claim of expertise. However, the mods who have posted here, including myself, have extensive experience as match directors, range officers, range staff, professional firearms instructors, etc. That is the basis for the "authority" of our comments. But even that's not needed. The safety standards are out there and ubiquitous and anyone can point out when they're being contradicted and broken by an individual.
 
I have. I've been to one or two for-profit ranges, usually operated in conjunction with a retail gun shop, that only let you use ammo they sold you.
I've seen that policy for rental guns belonging to the range, I don't think I'd be back to a range that made me buy their ammo for use in my guns.
 
bigfatdave said:
I've seen that policy for rental guns belonging to the range, I don't think I'd be back to a range that made me buy their ammo for use in my guns.

You might not want to sign up for a class at SigArms Academy then. There was a time when that was non-negotiable. Don't know if it still is or not. It was the way they'd ensure no lead ammunition was ever introduced onto their new indoor range. Ever.


Kliegl said:
Also, I'll often load some mags, and insert one in a gun for shooting after my current gun. Note that I, categorically, did NOT say chamber a round, so all my guns are always completely safe until I pick one up and chamber a round.


A cavalier, careless attitude around a firearm is how people get shot by unloaded guns. See Rule #1.


Kliegl said:
The problem with the concept of an RSO is that it's someone regulating your shooting experience. Part of exercising the right to bear arms is the freedom to do it your way. As we can see with the current government, while a little authority may be fine, it never stays that way.


You have the right to own a firearm. And I have a right not to get shot. You do what you want on your own property. You don't get to "do it your way" when you leave it.


Kliegl said:
the irony of being talked down to by 4 moderators (people who have been given a little bit of authority) on a subject of over-control / being talked down to by range officers (people that have been given a little bit of authority.)


Over-zealous moderators? Please. My wife knows better than to handle a gun when someone's downrange. She'd chastise you for doing it, as well.


I've seen children with better attitudes.
 
You might not want to sign up for a class at SigArms Academy then. There was a time when that was non-negotiable. Don't know if it still is or not. It was the way they'd ensure no lead ammunition was ever introduced onto their new indoor range. Ever.
I can understand the motivation to remain lead-free ... how much were they charging for that magic no-lead ammo?
 
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