I refuse to own a magnum rifle round that has a belt...

The belt was just part of "belted magnum " mania when introduced.

It does nothing to strengthen the case, nor does it head space.

I love them. The only problem you may have, after SEVERAL firings of the case
is sizing all the way down to the belt. That can be done with a collet sizing die.

Since I keep my cases sorted for both of my Big7's and only neck size
it's not a problem for me.

If you shoot factory it won't be a problem for you either.

Don't let NONSENSE keep you from owning a rifle in one
of the best calibers ever introduced.

This guy is shooting a mile (yeah, an actual mile) with his 7mm

http://www.varminthunters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88473

Big7 said:

The belt was just part of "belted magnum " mania when introduced

Click to expand...

Not so. The belt was introduced to allow rimmed cartridges to feed reliably from the magazine of a bolt action rifle while still allowing the cartridge to work with the extractor of a double with minimal modification to the rifle

It does nothing to strengthen the case, nor does it head space

Click to expand...

True, the belt does nothing to strengthen the case, but technically, the cases do use it for headspacing. Rimmed cases use the rim for headspacing and the belt simply moves the diameter of the rim forward. However, the reloader has the option of sizing rimmed or belted cases to headspace on the shoulder. In fact, the prudent reloader will do just that as manufacturers have been known to ream the shoulder dimension a little long. If firing nothing but factory ammo, this isn't a problem. But when the cases are resized to factory dimensions, combined with the long chambers lead to early case separations. Savvy reloaders learned to size the cases to headpace on the shoulder instead of the rim or belt

I almost forgot....284 WINCHESTER! Its a cute little power-plant. Now lets find brass

Click to expand...

Agreed, I just bought 3 boxes of ammo and am hoping to locate a rifle to burn it in!

I do not like belted cases either. My brother has one and when he is trying to (very quietly) load another round in while hunting, the bolt has slight resistance when it hits the belt, so he closes the bolt and pulls the trigger and all he hears is a click. I know this is the shooters problem or the gun. Belted magnums all seem inefficient.

Another vote for the 280 AI. Great caliber and brass is available from Nosler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big7 View Post
The belt was just part of "belted magnum " mania when introduced
Not so. The belt was introduced to allow rimmed cartridges to feed reliably from the magazine of a bolt action rifle while still allowing the cartridge to work with the extractor of a double with minimal modification to the rifle

Quote:
It does nothing to strengthen the case, nor does it head space
True, the belt does nothing to strengthen the case, but technically, the cases do use it for headspacing. Rimmed cases use the rim for headspacing and the belt simply moves the diameter of the rim forward. However, the reloader has the option of sizing rimmed or belted cases to headspace on the shoulder. In fact, the prudent reloader will do just that as manufacturers have been known to ream the shoulder dimension a little long. If firing nothing but factory ammo, this isn't a problem. But when the cases are resized to factory dimensions, combined with the long chambers lead to early case separations. Savvy reloaders learned to size the cases to headpace on the shoulder instead of the rim or belt
__________________
Quote:
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words" -Phillip K. Dick
Quote:
Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
I would think that lack of food, water, and shelter would kill you faster than the wrong gas system

Might want to check this out.
http://gunsloadsandanerd.blogspot.com/2010/07/belted-magnums-and-why-i-welcome-their.html

Anyhooo.. Not here to argue .

I've only loaded THOUSANDS of them.

And like I said, I neck size only.. So, either way, it's not a problem for me.

And from another board:

boomtube boomtube is offline
Platinum Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mountians of SW NC, near Asheville
Posts: 1,596
Re: magnum belts
"Magnum" simply means large, as in comparison to others in it's class. The belt on rifle cartridges, as such, is not a part of that.

The first magnum was one of the H&H line, don't remember which, .375 I think. It has a long tapered body and shoulder that demanded a rim or belt to insure firing pin impact didn't drive it too far forward and cause a hang fire. Never the less, the idea was easy to use in advertizing so when American makers started with the magnum craze with the .300 Weatherby and Winchester, they also used belted cases to take advantage of the popular concept but they also have sufficent shoulders to negate the need for a belt. A belt actually adds no particular case strength advantage at all.

A belt actually shares the same difficulty in a bolt rifle as most rimmed cases - it eats magazine space for no purpose. That is NOT an advantage, so the more recent designs have abandoned the belt while retaining the head size. The newer fatter cases can hold more powder in a same length chamber.

While I don't favor belted CF rifle cartridges either they are popular and some very nice rifles have been so chambered.

I have had a 7mm RM since it came out and have been handloading since 1953.

My current 7mm RM is a custom on a FN action with a 24" barrel in a very well done stock.

The twist of the barrel is 1-12" and 'longest' bullet it will shoot is the 120 Nosler. Thus it's a long range coyote gun and fun at the range.

The stock is good art with it's ribbon style checkering, schnabel forend and panel.

The British did use long, tapered cases and yes, they make extraction easier, especially with those using the long stick cordite powders where pressures could vary dramatically in the tropics. Easy extraction was of particular importance to the double rifle because the extractors of doubles in general weren't particularly strong. But double rifles offered the advantage of being two rifles in one allowing the shooter to simply press the second trigger if the first round didn't fire. Ammo was notoriously unreliable in those days.

However, as double rifles became more expensive to build and ammo became more reliable, the bolt action rifle rose in popularity. Rifle makers were now faced with a conundrum. Rimmed cases often do not feed well through the box magazine of the Mauser rifles which were the preferred choice of bolt actions. Yet, without a rim, the cartridges would not eject reliably from a double rifle.

British gun makers could have gone with all new cartridge designs better suited to the new bolt actions, but they wanted designs that could still be used with the still popular doubles. The answer was to use a belt. This keeps a rimmed cartridge from locking up in a box magazine and a double rifle is easily modified to go from a rimmed cartridge to a belted cartridge. Most doubles required nothing more than to bore the chamber a bit deeper to accept the belt

I have three magnums, two of which are belted: the .375 H&H and 7mm Rem Mag and the .300 WSM which is not. I have no trouble hand loading any of them, and while the belted mags headspace on the belt, that is not a source of problems. All three rifles in question are 0.5-0.75 MOA shooters.

Oh, and the .300 WSM is a Sako and it lives up to its <1.0 MOA guarantee with Federal Premium 180r Trophy Bonded Tip ammo.

Harry, happy magnum camper

I friggin LOVE belted cartridges! In fact, I'm going to give up my 300 WSM for another .300 Win Mag and it would take a small army to separate me from my .375 H&H Mag. In addition, a .458 Lott is on my wish list. Belted cartridges feed well and are capable of superb accuracy, particularly for the reloader. Heck, the .300 Win Mag is increasingly popular with the military for the same reasons.

The original belted magnum was the .375 H&H, because it lacked enough shoulder for proper headspacing. Many of the magnums developed in the second half of the 20th were based on it, and so they have a belt.

Click to expand...

The first belted cartridge was the .400/.375 Belted Nitro Express that lead to the .375 H&H Mag.

I have no trouble hand loading any of them, and while the belted mags headspace on the belt, that is not a source of problems. All three rifles in question are 0.5-0.75 MOA shooters.

Click to expand...

Well said! I neck size only and bump the shoulder back a couple of thousandths if necessary and that works great for me with belted cartridges. I just sold a Winchester Model 70 in .300 Win Mag which only leaves me with an AI in .300 Win Mag and a Kimber Talkeetna in .375 H&H Mag. A Mountain Ascent or Montana in .300 Win Mag are in my future along with a Caprivi in .458 Lott. Love that belt!

I do not like belted cases either. My brother has one and when he is trying to (very quietly) load another round in while hunting, the bolt has slight resistance when it hits the belt, so he closes the bolt and pulls the trigger and all he hears is a click. I know this is the shooters problem or the gun. Belted magnums all seem inefficient.

Click to expand...

Ain't the fault of the cartridge; it's either bad ammo, or there's some terribly wrong with the rifle-even dangerously wrong, like majorly out of spec headspace.

As for efficiency, the belt is irrelevant. That is a function of powder capacity, case shape and bore size.

The belt isn't really an issue for me. I just bought one of those fancy dies and did the extra sizing step. Of course, when the WSMs hit I couldn't switch fast enough. But it was more about action length that belt, there.

And why are people always saying certain cartridges are dead? Last I heard there were about a dozen factory loads and plenty of lovers of high BC 7mm bullets loved the WSM, too.

been loading for 45 years both belted and non belted and can honestly say ive never had a belt get in my way, cause me a bit of trouble, made loading any trickier, accuracy any worse or effect the performance of a round in any way. that said they don't help anything in a bolt gun either but id sure have a smaller safe if I let something like this that means nothing keep me from buying a gun.

1858 said:

I friggin LOVE belted cartridges! In fact, I'm going to give up my 300 WSM for another .300 Win Mag and it would take a small army to separate me from my .375 H&H Mag. In addition, a .458 Lott is on my wish list. Belted cartridges feed well and are capable of superb accuracy, particularly for the reloader. Heck, the .300 Win Mag is increasingly popular with the military for the same reasons.




The first belted cartridge was the .400/.375 Belted Nitro Express that lead to the .375 H&H Mag.

Click to expand...

Neat cartridge trivia! Thanks.


Does not look as tapered as the longer H&H but clearly doesn't have much of a shoulder to headspace on.

Mike

PS. I'm not sure at what "level" we are discussing the question. "Would I design a belted wildcat today?" or "Would I kick a perfectly good gun out of my gun safe?" Two different questions with two different answers.

The level has gone to the stratosphere as usual.

On most modern rifles the belt is useless and serves no purpose. I understand the reasoning why it is on some, and it does serve a purpose on them. The only belted magnum I'd consider is the 375, and even then I'd look very hard at the 375 Ruger if I needed such a gun. Not necessarily because the others have a belt on them, it is just that there are better options IMO that by chance don't have a belt.

Don't write off the 7mm WSM too soon. Even if it does die, ammo can easily be made from 300 WSM brass. The entire family of WSM cartridges has only been around for less than 15 years. In that short time they have far outsold the 270 in its first 15 years. The 270 came within inches of being dropped by Winchester, and it would have died if not for some guy named O'Connor who started writing about it. It took 25 years after being introduced before it became mainstream.

The biggest thing holding back the WSM's are patents filed by the inventor and royalties that must be paid on gun and ammo sales. Guns and ammo will cost more, or have smaller profit margins until the patent expires. I wouldn't be surprised to see them soar in sales in a few years and surpass both the 300 WM and 7mm RM in sales when it becomes more profitable to make them. Belt or not they do everything the belted magnums do, and do some things better.

Personally, I don't really need any of them, although I do have a rifle in 300 WSM. I'll likely never need anything bigger than a 308, but I like the 300 WSM rifle, regardless of the cartridge it is chambered in.

I'm not sure what the real problem with belted magnums is? I've been reloading the 7mm RM and the 300 WM for a very long time, it's no different than loading for any other bottle neck cartridge.

Is it because you might feel some confusion about where the reloaded cartridge head spaces? If so, just pretend the belt doesn't exist, cause for all practical purposes the belt only functions as the head space mechanism on the initial firing. Once it's been fired the first time, it then should be resized to head space off the shoulder, just like any bottle neck.

GS

I've owned a few belted mags and have no hatred of the belt at all. I've found all that I've owned to be easy to load and shoot. As said, treat it like the belt isn't there.