“Duty” tested guns..

sgt127

sgt127

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2003
Messages
2,113
For some reason, I’m more and more being drawn towards carrying guns that have a military or law enforcement pedigree. Sig P239, P229, P226. Smith or Ruger revolvers. Glocks 19. 22. Colt 1911’s. etc.

I have other guns. A Springfield EMP4..Sig P365. Lots of little hideout guns.

But, I’m liking guns with a “been there, done that” track record more and more.

Of course, that list is extensive you you really dig deep. The Walther PP. PPK. Colt 1903/1908. Heck, Colt SAA. All the old Colt Revolvers. S&W. Berettas. Many others.

Generally, it’s not super tiny, ultra compact, lightweight guns.

I just “feel” more confident with a Sig P239 than a Springfield Hellcat for example. Or even my Sig P365. Which has been absolutely outstanding and reliable.

Weird rambling thoughts.
 
Here you go, some been's there, done's that's.

index.php

The C96 "Broom handle" Mauser and the P08 luger would be the lowest on my list of carry weapons for reliability reasons (The P08 shoots well if fed the "right" ammo). The rest are very reliable.


I love metal and wood (Brown) guns but I like to carry as little weight as possible. I once spent the day hiking with my Beretta 92 INOX in a LEO retention holster. That is crazy (to me at least) to carry around that much weight even with a good LEO belt. I understand why many cops love their Glocks after that exercise!

That is just me though, carry what you feel comfortable with and makes you happy!
 
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Hired as a cop in 1992 the department still issued revolvers but allowed approved personally owned pistols like Glock; I carried my Glock 17 then 21.
Only did that job a couple years but my preference for a semi has not changed; I still carry Glocks and the 19 is a good minimum.
 
sgt127 said:
I just “feel” more confident with a Sig P239 than a Springfield Hellcat for example. Or even my Sig P365. Which has been absolutely outstanding and reliable.
Click to expand...

About a decade ago, the State agency I worked for issued us Sig P232's for "back up" guns to our issued G22's. Why they didn't issue G27's and went with the Sig, I don't know...as the .380 ACP wasn't in our SOP as an approved carry round (I suspect a soon-to-be-retiring Captain wanted to take one when he left and had something to do with it). When our 12-agent field office went to qualify with them, at least 50% had the front and/or rear sight fly off by the second magazine. The rest of the offices had about the same reliability results, and they were taken up about 6 months later.

All that to say...I guess the P232 can claim to have an "LE pedigree" now...but I'd trust my P365 over one 100% of the time. :)
 
Milsurp pistols and LE turn-ins are typically inexpensive, for those who like duty weapons. Most of them that I've gotten have been shot some, carried a lot, and were maintained decently.

I think the revolver was from a Dept of Corrections. The Tanfoglio was from a military-affiliated shooting club in Israel.

Smith and Wesson Model 64-5 38 special

Smith and Wesson Model 64-5 38 special


Tanfoglio Cohai TA90 9mm

Tanfoglio Cohai TA90 9mm

 
Don't forget the Ruby and Beretta 1934/35s, J.P. Sauer & Sohns 38h, Mauser HSc & 1914, Steyr M1912, CZ 27, Makarov and the Beholla.
 
I agree with the thought here of going with guns that have a good history and have been vetted for use by the government agencies that have used them, but Id limit it there as far as choosing a "used" one, especially one of the older models for carry and/ or serious use, unless it was all I had.

Ive always carried full/duty sized guns, but other than a couple of slightly modified and gone-over GI 1911's, they were pretty much all "new" and current models of the guns, and most of those guns were in active use by various different agencies at the time.

I have and have had a bunch of trade in and surplus guns, and while usually fun and decent, with reasonable examples, they havent always been totally reliable and some had some problems that wouldn't have been good if I had been counting on them in a bad moment.

Two recent cases there were with a NY DOC Model 10 and a Colt Combat Commander that was as best as I can tell, an Israeli police "import".

The Model 10's barrel "spun off" while I was cleaning it, and the Commanders staked in front sight flew off while shooting it and it needed a little bit of fiddling too.

The gist of what Im getting here from sgt127's post is, isnt so much the "older" guns for use here, as it is the more reasonable and realistic "examples" of guns for serious use, instead of what seems to be the norm for carry these days for a lot of people.

If you knew you were going to be in a fight the second you walked out the door, and there was a table by the door, with an assortment of handguns on the table to choose from, from pocket size to duty size, which would you choose to go out the door with?

And if youre choosing something different from what you normally carry, why?
 
trackskippy said:
I agree with the thought here of going with guns that have a good history and have been vetted for use by the government agencies that have used them, but Id limit it there as far as choosing a "used" one, especially one of the older models for carry and/ or serious use, unless it was all I had.

Ive always carried full/duty sized guns, but other than a couple of slightly modified and gone-over GI 1911's, they were pretty much all "new" and current models of the guns, and most of those guns were in active use by various different agencies at the time.

I have and have had a bunch of trade in and surplus guns, and while usually fun and decent, with reasonable examples, they havent always been totally reliable and some had some problems that wouldn't have been good if I had been counting on them in a bad moment.

Two recent cases there were with a NY DOC Model 10 and a Colt Combat Commander that was as best as I can tell, an Israeli police "import".

The Model 10's barrel "spun off" while I was cleaning it, and the Commanders staked in front sight flew off while shooting it and it needed a little bit of fiddling too.

The gist of what Im getting here from sgt127's post is, isnt so much the "older" guns for use here, as it is the more reasonable and realistic "examples" of guns for serious use, instead of what seems to be the norm for carry these days for a lot of people.

If you knew you were going to be in a fight the second you walked out the door, and there was a table by the door, with an assortment of handguns on the table to choose from, from pocket size to duty size, which would you choose to go out the door with?

And if youre choosing something different from what you normally carry, why?
Click to expand...

But I often carry many that I mentioned rather than many of my more modern guns. For example I find the 32acp all metal pistols like my 38h and Beretta 1935 easy to conceal, easy to shoot accurately and repeatedly and very reliable.

But I will most likely NEVER know I was going to be in a fight and if I did, I would simply not go out the door.
 
I like the German P- pistols myself if LE pedigree is favored.

Especially the P7 but no one should for get the:

P-1 - Walther P38
P-2 - Sig 210
P-5 - Oddly, apparently only ever known as the Walther P-5
P-6 - Sig P225
P-8 - H&K USP 9

There is an Astra in there somewhere too.
 
jar said:
But I often carry many that I mentioned rather than many of my more modern guns. For example I find the 32acp all metal pistols like my 38h and Beretta 1935 easy to conceal, easy to shoot accurately and repeatedly and very reliable.

But I will most likely NEVER know I was going to be in a fight and if I did, I would simply not go out the door.
Click to expand...
Well, to the last part there, thats kind of the point of carrying a more realistic gun, you just never know what you might get at any given moment. So, do you prepare for the worst, or only the things you might think you might could get?

As far as what I choose to carry, I dont have a rotation of guns that I carry, that just seems counterproductive to me. I have 2, a Glock 17, and sometimes a Glock 26, the latter as both a back up and very occasionally, as a stand-alone.

Im much more comfortable carrying the guns I would choose if I knew that fight was right out the door. It takes no more effort to carry them, and they offer so much more. Over the decades, those guns were all duty type guns, GM and Commander sized 1911's, SIG P220's, 226's, Glock 17's, etc. And when those were being carried, they were dedicated guns for the time they were carried. No switching up.

I would have no problem with the older guns, as long as they can be vetted, and with that, you need to constantly shoot them to make sure the gun and you are good to go with each other. I just dont see that really happening.

Constant/regular use tends to wear things out, and with a lot of those older guns, there's no idea as to their past history, use, round count, and maintenance, etc. Since Im supposing the whole point here is trusting your life with them, I just dont see that as a positive or sensible thing. Why am I wearing out an 80 year old gun in use and practice when I can have a new, and better version, and probably a couple of them, for less money?

Nostalgia is cool and all, I just dont see it has a place in regard to the subject here. Personally, I want current, well-vetted, appropriate, and realistic for "any" use that may present itself. I like the older and smaller guns too, but if Im going to bet my life on it, I want something that gives me the best chance there.

And the older guns all get out to the range and are pretty regularly shot too. Im just going easy on them and letting them enjoy the golden years and taking it easy. If things happen to go south at the range, no big deal, its back to the home for some TLC and some therapy. :)


"Off our rockers, actin' crazy, and with the right medication, we wont be lazy...", oops, sorry, Little Feat always starts plain in my head when things start to gettin' nostalgic. :p
 
Yeah. Not so much the ancient stuff. For me:

Sig P239 > Kahr K9
Sig P226 > Springfield XD
S&W 3” 65 > Kimber K6
Colt Govt model > Kimber 1911
Glock 19 > Springfield Hellcat.
Browning High Power > SA EMP4.

All the guns on the “less than” side are, great guns. I own several. But, they don’t have the pedigree. Very few have ever been picked up as “Duty” guns. Military or police.

It’s not an exact comparison. It’s open to debate. My examples may not be perfect.

Edit:
Now that I think about it, the Kahr K9 actually was NYPD approved.

But, that’s kinda the gist of my thinking.
 
trackskippy said:
Well, to the last part there, thats kind of the point of carrying a more realistic gun, you just never know what you might get at any given moment. So, do you prepare for the worst, or only the things you might think you might could get?

As far as what I choose to carry, I dont have a rotation of guns that I carry, that just seems counterproductive to me. I have 2, a Glock 17, and sometimes a Glock 26, the latter as both a back up and very occasionally, as a stand-alone.

Im much more comfortable carrying the guns I would choose if I knew that fight was right out the door. It takes no more effort to carry them, and they offer so much more. Over the decades, those guns were all duty type guns, GM and Commander sized 1911's, SIG P220's, 226's, Glock 17's, etc. And when those were being carried, they were dedicated guns for the time they were carried. No switching up.

I would have no problem with the older guns, as long as they can be vetted, and with that, you need to constantly shoot them to make sure the gun and you are good to go with each other. I just dont see that really happening.

Constant/regular use tends to wear things out, and with a lot of those older guns, there's no idea as to their past history, use, round count, and maintenance, etc. Since Im supposing the whole point here is trusting your life with them, I just dont see that as a positive or sensible thing. Why am I wearing out an 80 year old gun in use and practice when I can have a new, and better version, and probably a couple of them, for less money?

Nostalgia is cool and all, I just dont see it has a place in regard to the subject here. Personally, I want current, well-vetted, appropriate, and realistic for "any" use that may present itself. I like the older and smaller guns too, but if Im going to bet my life on it, I want something that gives me the best chance there.

And the older guns all get out to the range and are pretty regularly shot too. Im just going easy on them and letting them enjoy the golden years and taking it easy. If things happen to go south at the range, no big deal, its back to the home for some TLC and some therapy. :)


"Off our rockers, actin' crazy, and with the right medication, we wont be lazy...", oops, sorry, Little Feat always starts plain in my head when things start to gettin' nostalgic. :p
Click to expand...

Well, I'm as confident when carrying, or even not carrying, regardless of what I choose.

I do not feel more capable or secure if I'm carrying a pistol with three extra 15 round magazines instead of my Detective Special with no extras or one of my 32acp pistols. I do not feel more capable or secure when I'm carrying than if I was not carrying.

I am not going to get in a fire fight or play hero and at my age if the issue is not resolved in just a few seconds I will almost certainly lose.

I have not been able to even imagine a situation where I would need than what I happen to have at any time.
 
Of course, that list is extensive you you really dig deep. The Walther PP. PPK. Colt 1903/1908. Heck, Colt SAA. All the old Colt Revolvers. S&W. Berettas. Many others.
Click to expand...
Including flintlocks... I like the idea that a pistol has been chosen as a service weapon at some time in the past, and at least for relatively modern times I would include that as a consideration, but I think the context is important. Sometimes pistols were chosen because they were the only reasonable option at the time, and they may not stack up well at all compared to the selection we have available now.
 
My first exposure to Glocks was through friends and acquaintances that were Police Officers or Sheriffs Deputies. A friend of mine in South Carolina and his buddies were all cops and he invited me to shoot with them and loaned me a Glock 17 to try. I liked it very much and bought a G34 a week later and have carried and used Glocks ever since.
 
JohnKSa said:
Including flintlocks... I like the idea that a pistol has been chosen as a service weapon at some time in the past, and at least for relatively modern times I would include that as a consideration, but I think the context is important. Sometimes pistols were chosen because they were the only reasonable option at the time, and they may not stack up well at all compared to the selection we have available now.
Click to expand...

And service/duty guns are selected on more criteria than simply "does it go bang". There's a budget to hit, ammo capacity for the role, how easily armorers can work on them, if the manufacturer can hit the required order quantities, OEM service agreements and replacment parts, and I'm sure others.
 
earlthegoat2 said:
I like the German P- pistols myself if LE pedigree is favored.

Especially the P7 but no one should for get the:

P-1 - Walther P38
P-2 - Sig 210
P-5 - Oddly, apparently only ever known as the Walther P-5
P-6 - Sig P225
P-8 - H&K USP 9

There is an Astra in there somewhere too.
Click to expand...

Astra 600, left over from WWII Nazi orders, became the P3.
P4 is the P38 IV, a "product improved" P38.

On beyond that
P-9 - Glock, looks like a 17; although some count the H&K P9s in the series because it was used by GSG anti-terrorist squad.
P-10 - H&K USP Compact
P-11 - A strange looking H&K product, said to be an underwater gun. Polizei frogmen?
P-12 - H&K USP Tactical.
 
sgt127 said:
I just “feel” more confident with a Sig P239 than a Springfield Hellcat for example. Or even my Sig P365. Which has been absolutely outstanding and reliable.
Click to expand...

I'll point out that LE and military may fire fewer rounds through a single weapon than competition shooters or even enthusiastic recreational shooter. I'd lean more on "torture tests" of 1 gun shot 10,000 times than 100,000 guns shot 100 times.
 
I have lots of old service pistols that I shoot for fun. That's what I bought them for.

My CC and HD handguns happen to be newer models.

Some of my older handguns would be fine for SD. If it hasn't been shot, it hasn't been shot. They don't go bad just from age. Some of the service handguns that are surplused off are actually unused. My FiL got a surplus Star Super B that was obviously NiB and had never been fired. It's not his first choice for SD, and that's not what he bought it for, but it will go bang many thousands of times NP with normal maintenance.

I've owned a lot of old used pistols. After I've had them to the range a few times, and stripped and cleaned them a few times, I have a pretty good idea of where they're at mechanically. It comes with experience.

With regards to the original idea, service pistols, there are a couple of things going on there. As one poster said, some pistols were pressed into service because that's what was available and weren't really that great. More towards the OP's point, though, is that some service pistols were in service for a long time and in a lot of places because they were very dependable and very good shooters. My S&W service revolvers and 1911 pistols are good examples of the latter category. I didn't buy them for SD, but they're dependable and I've practiced with them a lot over the years.
 
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