“Insurance Edited” Loading Manuals

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I don't know what you're seeing in this timeline of data that tells you "maximum pressure" is being avoided or something has changed drastically over time. I don't see anything being "watered down" and I'm looking for it. I see progressively higher charges with progressively harder alloys. From Lyman No.40 to Lyman No.48, nothing has been watered down for any reason. What's so hard to understand about that?

Did you read my original post? I said I've seen data in Lyman 50th and the 4th edit cast book that has max charge and pressure in excess of 1K psi below SAAMI MAP. This is listed pressure in these manuals. And that's what I was saying I had an issue with. I'm not comparing charges over time, I'm not complaining about loads being reduced over time due to lawyers. It was just an observation related to some modern published data not being full pressure.
 
I think the thread to yank on, to unravel the mystery, is why do all burn rate charts not list the various powders we choose from in the exact same order?

This “scientifically” collected data is in disagreement before cases, bullets and guns are even brought into the mix to add to the confusion.
Well, mostly because nitroalkene, nitrotoluene, nitroglycerine, and nitrocellulose are all inherently unstable and unpredictable substances. We take for granted exactly how dangerous these compounds are and how different each batch is.
And, by the way, if you ever meet a really good whiskey blending master or any distiller of blended spirits, the first thing they'll tell you is, add a splash of branch water to your whiskey to bring out it's nose.
 
Based on what information? And when did this happen?
Most Hornaday Maximum loads will barely function an auto pistol. I have verified that in several calibers & different like handguns. I do not know who did the editing on the data, but they definately left a big margin.
 
Pretty obvious isn't it? I mean, really it is pretty obvious. You must have thought about it enough to understand what I said. But okay, I'll explain further, just for you.

If some data lists max charges with pressure testing records that fall below SAAMI maximum average pressure, then the data doesn't go to SAAMI max. Which means it's not a full pressure load. Which means it watered down.
Not true... I'm not going to relate the entire book but max in Lyman manuals had no deviation above max... because of standard deviations any over the line would eliminate that group. Other limitations in the cast manual include speed limits, which is somewhere in the 2200 fps range... I believe it would be fair to describe limitations in all cases but they dont.
 
Pretty obvious isn't it? I mean, really it is pretty obvious. You must have thought about it enough to understand what I said. But okay, I'll explain further, just for you.

If some data lists max charges with pressure testing records that fall below SAAMI maximum average pressure, then the data doesn't go to SAAMI max. Which means it's not a full pressure load. Which means it watered down.
Sometimes they stop because more powder gets unpredictable after that. We tend to call it “spikey”. Some powders behave better at the top. When it’s lead data, sometimes they stop at a velocity point, or where more causes leading.
 
The Engineering profession by its very nature is cautious and conservative. Its not hard to “over-engineer” something where it never fails. Its much harder to use predictive data and approximations and design it to a mechanical safety factor of 2:1 or 3:1. Why is this?

The simple and short answer is the known unknowns. Inputs such as material quality, manufacturing quality, and mechanical design stress risers are the easy ones.

Material quality asks such questions as out of a thousand pieces of steel is there an internal flaw or defect and could you detect it? Magnetic particle inspection or ultrasonic testing can find flaws sub-surface depending on the technique. The product designer better have a long talk w his NDT Level III about process detection and capability! Did you orient your magnetic fields in the correct orientations and the ultrasonic wave type, intensity, and orientation on the inspection plan? Did you have the amperage set too high on the magnetic particle? You have a flaw, is it a reportable indication? What is the smallest flaw size you can detect? Now design for it because it is a known unknown.

What is the yield strength of your steel? Will a 45xx series steel work or do you need 86xx steel w a high carbon content? 86xx steel gives much more capability w less mass, how much more is the material and machining cost? Will the public be willing to pay 20-30% more for this part? Is it a highly stressed pressure component that is small w many mechanical features such as an AR bolt? What if I add a bigger compound radius or potential undercut radius? Will this buy stress margin?

Mean vs alternating stress! Do I use the ASME Elliptical, Goodman, Soderberg, or Gerber curve for alternating vs mean stress? Mean (average) stress is the easy one. What alternating stresses do I expect to see? Is there a particular frequency? Barrel vibration and bolt speed on an automatic? The alternating stress and frequency response drives many bridge failures for instance.

Here is the big one, high or low cycle fatigue! That firearm action will hold the pressure for a 1,000 cycles no problem, what about cycle 10,000? Is this design a potential 5-10 yr litigation issue when many of the guns hit the higher round counts?

Now your gun action design is complete! You had a product specification for pressures, cartridge SAAMI, and customer expectations. Now the manufacturing engineer gets the preliminary prints. They have been working w you all along but you made the tolerances too tight. That 86xx steel component you specified +/- 0.001” w its mating component w the same tolerances worked great in the stress analysis and tolerance stackup due to that alternating stress you saw in testing. They are seeing excessive tooling wear to hold that tolerance and the carbide endmill cost is HIGH! Can you switch to another steel easier to machine? What about that 45xx steel? Its fatigue factor was different.

Could adding S-110 or S-330 shotpeening help it meet life? What intensity, will 0.004-0.006” work? Can they over shotpeen it? The manufacturing engineer needs to run a saturation curve! Part masking is needed to prevent rounding to that bolt lockup surface. That is going to add cost! Is it better to buy that dedicated polyurethane masking or to add another operation to the part router? Are these cost swaps acceptable to accounting and marketing?

Assembly and heat treat technique? Can they overheat treat a lot? The original Springfield 1903 had a slight problem of embrittlement due to over hardening that caused high round cycle failures. Do I test every part or lot test batches for sampling? What test and range? Will a simple Brinell or Rockwell C indenter suffice? Heat treat penetration required? What samples do I send to the metallography lab? The lab is overwhelmed and wants to know if I can reduce the sample rate since the Six Sigma guru showed process capability and they have special process parameters.

Can they overtorque a part? Read about P17 rifles on Eddystone receivers. The original barrels were ok but existing flaws were magnified when over-torqued in ass’y and when re-barreled not detected by mag particle. Is there a false cut due to a tired operator on graveyard and doing a manual blend operation that causes a Kt stress riser in a highly stressed component? Is there a way to potentially mis-assemble this? We need to poke yoke this!

If you read this far now you can appreciate the known unknown things that keep a mechanical engineer up at night. These are many of the known unknowns from an ISO 9001:2008 company.

Now you consider publishing loads for Bubba to make at home w aftermarket products such as powder, primers, cases, and bullets of unknown origin. This is the greatest unknown variable of them all!

How susceptible is that powder to degradation? Will it significantly alter that pressure-time curve? How erratic was the standard deviations for pressure or powder position sensitivity in the cartridge case? What about pressure fluctuations w temperature? That new whizz-bang .300 XXX Magnum is the hot new ticket for Polar Bears and light African Safari cartridge for Plains Game! Ideal gas law PV=nRT is a good starting point but its been marketed as a heavy for caliber suppressor ready rifles!

Will the home handloader try to cheat the OAL and use a heavier for caliber bullet and still chamber the round? Is this the new military sniper rifle round that surplus cases are abundant and cheap? Does that thicker case reduce the internal volume available and raise the pressures another 3-5%?

That 90% starting load is a great caution for sure!

What is my long-winded point? Lawyers and insurance are the least of an engineer’s problems if they diligently follow their profession and best practices. Even if you do everything correctly you may still find yourself on the witness stand defending against product litigation and you followed every best practice. This is why licensure and design standards exist, its peer review at its best to establish minimum standards that attempt to solve society problems.

There is a professional organization called the Order of the Engineer. The folks that join take a solemn oath to respect the profession and always consider the higher ethical good when performing their branch of engineering. We put a lot of faith in an unknown engineer in the design or ballistics lab!
 
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The Engineering profession by its very nature is cautious and conservative. Its not hard to “over-engineer” something where it never fails. Its much harder to use predictive data and approximations and design it to a mechanical safety factor of 2:1 or 3:1. Why is this?

The simple and short answer is the known unknowns. Inputs such as material quality, manufacturing quality, and mechanical design stress risers are the easy ones.

Material quality asks such questions as out of a thousand pieces of steel is there an internal flaw or defect and could you detect it? Magnetic particle inspection or ultrasonic testing can find flaws sub-surface depending on the technique. The product designer better have a long talk w his NDT Level III about process detection and capability! Did you orient your magnetic fields in the correct orientations and the ultrasonic wave type, intensity, and orientation on the inspection plan? Did you have the amperage set too high on the magnetic particle? You have a flaw, is it a reportable indication? What is the smallest flaw size you can detect? Now design for it because it is a known unknown.

What is the yield strength of your steel? Will a 45xx series steel work or do you need 86xx steel w a high carbon content? 86xx steel gives much more capability w less mass, how much more is the material and machining cost? Will the public be willing to pay 20-30% more for this part? Is it a highly stressed pressure component that is small w many mechanical features such as an AR bolt? What if I add a bigger compound radius or potential undercut radius? Will this buy stress margin?

Mean vs alternating stress! Do I use the ASME Elliptical, Goodman, Soderberg, or Gerber curve for alternating vs mean stress? Mean (average) stress is the easy one. What alternating stresses do I expect to see? Is there a particular frequency? Barrel vibration and bolt speed on an automatic? The alternating stress and frequency response drives many bridge failures for instance.

Here is the big one, high or low cycle fatigue! That firearm action will hold the pressure for a 1,000 cycles no problem, what about cycle 10,000? Is this design a potential 5-10 yr litigation issue when many of the guns hit the higher round counts?

Now your gun action design is complete! You had a product specification for pressures, cartridge SAAMI, and customer expectations. Now the manufacturing engineer gets the preliminary prints. They have been working w you all along but you made the tolerances too tight. That 86xx steel component you specified +/- 0.001” w its mating component w the same tolerances worked great in the stress analysis and tolerance stackup due to that alternating stress you saw in testing. They are seeing excessive tooling wear to hold that tolerance and the carbide endmill cost is HIGH! Can you switch to another steel easier to machine? What about that 45xx steel? Its fatigue factor was different.

Could adding S-110 or S-330 shotpeening help it meet life? What intensity, will 0.004-0.006” work? Can they over shotpeen it? The manufacturing engineer needs to run a saturation curve! Part masking is needed to prevent rounding to that bolt lockup surface. That is going to add cost! Is it better to buy that dedicated polyurethane masking or to add another operation to the part router? Are these cost swaps acceptable to accounting and marketing?

Assembly and heat treat technique? Can they overheat treat a lot? The original Springfield 1903 had a slight problem of embrittlement due to over hardening that caused high round cycle failures. Do I test every part or lot test batches for sampling? What test and range? Will a simple Brinell or Rockwell C indenter suffice? Heat treat penetration required? What samples do I send to the metallography lab? The lab is overwhelmed and wants to know if I can reduce the sample rate since the Six Sigma guru showed process capability and they have special process parameters.

Can they overtorque a part? Read about P17 rifles on Eddystone receivers. The original barrels were ok but existing flaws were magnified when over-torqued in ass’y and when re-barreled not detected by mag particle. Is there a false cut due to a tired operator on graveyard and doing a manual blend operation that causes a Kt stress riser in a highly stressed component? Is there a way to potentially mis-assemble this? We need to poke yoke this!

If you read this far now you can appreciate the known unknown things that keep a mechanical engineer up at night. These are many of the known unknowns from an ISO 9001:2008 company.

Now you consider publishing loads for Bubba to make at home w aftermarket products such as powder, primers, cases, and bullets of unknown origin. This is the greatest unknown variable of them all!

How susceptible is that powder to degradation? Will it significantly alter that pressure-time curve? How erratic was the standard deviations for pressure or powder position sensitivity in the cartridge case? What about pressure fluctuations w temperature? That new whizz-bang .300 XXX Magnum is the hot new ticket for Polar Bears and light African Safari cartridge for Plains Game! Ideal gas law PV=nRT is a good starting point but its been marketed as a heavy for caliber suppressor ready rifles!

Will the home handloader try to cheat the OAL and use a heavier for caliber bullet and still chamber the round? Is this the new military sniper rifle round that surplus cases are abundant and cheap? Does that thicker case reduce the internal volume available and raise the pressures another 3-5%?

That 90% starting load is a great caution for sure!

What is my long-winded point? Lawyers and insurance are the least of an engineer’s problems if they diligently follow their profession and best practices. Even if you do everything correctly you may still find yourself on the witness stand defending against product litigation and you followed every best practice. This is why licensure and design standards exist, its peer review at its best to establish minimum standards that attempt to solve society problems.

There is a professional organization called the Order of the Engineer. The folks that join take a solemn oath to respect the profession and always consider the higher ethical good when performing their branch of engineering. We put a lot of faith in an unknown engineer in the design or ballistics lab!
As a simple machinist making parts for military experimentals, you are expected to disclose potential manufacturing flaws. Rewards are offered by the primary contractors for reporting which discloses correctable flaws; bigger rewards for correctional suggestions. At least, that’s how it was when I was a working machinist in the ‘80’s. I collected on two such flaws reports, one including a potential corrective action netted me 25grand. Engineers, I was told HATE, HATE, Hate it! when lowlife wrench turners claim to know something they don’t and will get such lowlife fired or switch contractors so, just shut up if you know what’s good for you. I was told this by coworkers who had submitted reports that didn’t pan out. Turns out engineers are grateful for the insights a good machinist offers. $25K grateful.
 
Engineers love good machinists and assembly techs. I know an assembler in a plant that has his name on the patent next to the engineer’s name because it was his fixture idea for a jig.

Engineers love when you point out a flaw and a potential solution, even if it needs tweaking. Thats different than straight “that will never work” static.
 
As a simple machinist making parts for military experimentals, you are expected to disclose potential manufacturing flaws. Rewards are offered by the primary contractors for reporting which discloses correctable flaws; bigger rewards for correctional suggestions. At least, that’s how it was when I was a working machinist in the ‘80’s. I collected on two such flaws reports, one including a potential corrective action netted me 25grand. Engineers, I was told HATE, HATE, Hate it! when lowlife wrench turners claim to know something they don’t and will get such lowlife fired or switch contractors so, just shut up if you know what’s good for you. I was told this by coworkers who had submitted reports that didn’t pan out. Turns out engineers are grateful for the insights a good machinist offers. $25K grateful.

Yep, like engineers and machinists, physicians love it when nurses find problems with their work, same with lawyers and paralegals, judges and clerks, chefs and wait staff, CIA operations officers and analysts, officers and enlisted. The list goes on. Everyone likes being corrected, until they don’t:).
 
Engineers love good machinists and assembly techs. I know an assembler in a plant that has his name on the patent next to the engineer’s name because it was his fixture idea for a jig.

Engineers love when you point out a flaw and a potential solution, even if it needs tweaking. Thats different than straight “that will never work” static.
And I have to tell this machinist story—my grandfather retired from the old Bureau of Standards (now NIST) in DC as a senior machinist/instrument maker (or some such). Didn’t finish school, started sweeping floors in a machine shop in Pittsburgh. Became an apprentice machinist and toiled in the steel mills until the Navy started ramping up for war. He got a job at the DC Navy Yard as a machinist. Left my Grandma and my aunt and father in Pittsburgh until he could afford to “send for them.”

One day in the 50s while at the BOS, his boss brought a skinny Navy Admiral up to him and asked if Papa could make this instrument (from an engineering drawing) for the Admiral. Being a proper machinist, Papa asked how many the Admiral wanted. (That part’s a joke). Anyway, Papa made what the Admiral needed and a couple years later learned the Admiral was Hyman Rickover and the gauge/instrument was used on the Nautilus.

Today, I have his tools and use some in my reloading like a case remover and other amateur smithing. Wish I had his skills.

Engineers are great and I like em, but they’re not like Papa.
 
A couple of comments, mostly already touched on by other posters....

1. MAP is not the maximum allowable load. MPLM, Maximum Probable Lot Mean, is the actual limit. The 30-06 has an MAP of 60,000 PSI and an MPLM of 61,500 PSI. This is NOT a license to load 1,500 PSI above MAP! We are stuck with estimating MPLM with a sample, and sampling produces imperfect results. MAP is calculated to take into account the imperfections in sampling, and ensure that the real lot mean is not above MPLM.

2. The very old case head expansion method was exceedingly chancy, and the CUP method was very imperfect. The newer piezo and strain gauge methods are better. Still, two 10 shot samples drawn from the same lot of 30-06 ammunition will often be 1,000 PSI apart, and sometimes 2,000 PSI apart using piezo or strain. That is one reason that manuals vary in their maximum charges. One reason that some older loads are higher than modern loads is that the old loads were developed with older measurement techiques, and when new methods became available, it was found that actual pressures were much higher than they were believed to be.

3. Sometimes, loads reach a point where more powder does not produce more muzzle velocity. Nothing good comes from increasing powder charge beyond this point, even if it is well below MAP. That accounts for some loads that are well below MAP.

4. It's your rifle, your fingers, and your eyes. You can run whatever pressure you like. That makes you the canary in the coalmine.
 
Well, mostly because nitroalkene, nitrotoluene, nitroglycerine, and nitrocellulose are all inherently unstable and unpredictable substances. We take for granted exactly how dangerous these compounds are and how different each batch is.

Yes. There are “tolerance’s” to almost everything that can be manufactured.

Some degree of variation that is allowable. The closer to perfect, the more it costs. For all we know, General Dynamics may have changed a tolerance, as a cost reduction measure and informed distributors and they had to change data accordingly for the greater variation.
 
If we ignore the engineering and testing, then insurance companies their lawyers will get involved.
Comparing the powders of yesteryear with the powders of today is a big part of the issue. Formulae have changed. Testing standards have changed. even batch-to-batch, we should re-work our loads. So, start low and work your way up, no matter the publishing date of your data.
 
Formulae have changed. Testing standards have changed.

I know for sure some powders are different than they used to be. I can even demonstrate it with a few powders I have both old and new stock of. New versions are noticeably cleaner, W231 for example. IMR 3031 is another that has even changed size. The old extrusions are longer than the new stuff.
 
The Engineering profession by its very nature is cautious and conservative. Its not hard to “over-engineer” something where it never fails. .........................
There is a professional organization called the Order of the Engineer. The folks that join take a solemn oath to respect the profession and always consider the higher ethical good when performing their branch of engineering. We put a lot of faith in an unknown engineer in the design or ballistics lab!
Slightly off post but: Do you still receive a steel ring to wear when you take the oath? They did in the 1970s.
 
And I have to tell this machinist story—my grandfather retired from the old Bureau of Standards (now NIST) in DC as a senior machinist/instrument maker (or some such). Didn’t finish school, started sweeping floors in a machine shop in Pittsburgh. Became an apprentice machinist and toiled in the steel mills until the Navy started ramping up for war. He got a job at the DC Navy Yard as a machinist. Left my Grandma and my aunt and father in Pittsburgh until he could afford to “send for them.”

One day in the 50s while at the BOS, his boss brought a skinny Navy Admiral up to him and asked if Papa could make this instrument (from an engineering drawing) for the Admiral. Being a proper machinist, Papa asked how many the Admiral wanted. (That part’s a joke). Anyway, Papa made what the Admiral needed and a couple years later learned the Admiral was Hyman Rickover and the gauge/instrument was used on the Nautilus.

Today, I have his tools and use some in my reloading like a case remover and other amateur smithing. Wish I had his skills.

Engineers are great and I like em, but they’re not like Papa.

I got a laugh out of the description of Admiral Rickover (the father of the nuclear navy). I cannot say he was the skinniest Admiral, but the word certainly describes him. Fishtales, USN FTG2 1966-72
 
Cast rifle bullets usually are best served w slow handgun / fast rifle powders that fill the case well and hit that ~2k fps threshold. After 1400-1600 fps gas checks help.

After 1.8-2.0k fps the hardness, twist rate, bore fitment (throat as well), and powder flame heat dictate how much cleaning and velocity you are willing to trade.
 
Don't maximum loads for cast bullets top out at the point leading gets worse and accuracy goes south?
(In other words, probably way short of SAAMI max pressure.)
Typically, yes. Lots of things can go sideways when you push pressure over median.
 
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