Amen brother..... me either.
•••Load Testing Procedures•••?
- Thread starter the Black Spot
- Start date
BushMaster-15
member
Load Testing Procedures ??.
Excuse Me , isn't that implying some form of load variation either powder type brand weight and projectile with possibly a primer change thrown in ?. Most folks I know use some form of ladder sequence ,so as to find the most accurate load in their particular firearm .
I've learned a few things over the years ,mostly from BR shooters who as we all know are anal retentive about every aspect of components , prepping reloading and firearms to shoot them out of .
So are we really referring to " Load Testing Procedures " or how and when to clean a firearm ?.
Personally I find for " General Purposes " LESS cleaning is BEST ; Unless one is hotly slinging lead down a bore but jacketed , NO way Jose I'd never get loads or groups done . Revolver holds #5 ,6 ,8 or 9 shots SHOOT the group , Hunting rifles #3-5 shot groups ,AR's let your conscience be YOUR guide . Mine generally NO more than #15 rounds ( I usually break that into # 3 groups ) then cool down and run a dry swab for excess crap . Squeaky clean barrels ,NOT unless storage for a predetermined period is imminent .
MY Weapons are TOOLS and I USE but Don't abuse them . Now smooth bores there could be an argument on that
Excuse Me , isn't that implying some form of load variation either powder type brand weight and projectile with possibly a primer change thrown in ?. Most folks I know use some form of ladder sequence ,so as to find the most accurate load in their particular firearm .
I've learned a few things over the years ,mostly from BR shooters who as we all know are anal retentive about every aspect of components , prepping reloading and firearms to shoot them out of .
So are we really referring to " Load Testing Procedures " or how and when to clean a firearm ?.
Personally I find for " General Purposes " LESS cleaning is BEST ; Unless one is hotly slinging lead down a bore but jacketed , NO way Jose I'd never get loads or groups done . Revolver holds #5 ,6 ,8 or 9 shots SHOOT the group , Hunting rifles #3-5 shot groups ,AR's let your conscience be YOUR guide . Mine generally NO more than #15 rounds ( I usually break that into # 3 groups ) then cool down and run a dry swab for excess crap . Squeaky clean barrels ,NOT unless storage for a predetermined period is imminent .
MY Weapons are TOOLS and I USE but Don't abuse them . Now smooth bores there could be an argument on that
Hugger-4641
Member
My hunting rifles get cleaned right before season starts and then zero is verified with at least two groups of three shots from a cold bore. This is if using a load I've already proven. My rifles are not cleaned again until season is over unless more than a box of shells are fired or I've hunted in a soaking rain. If that happens, another test group is fired after cleaning to verify zero. So I'm never hunting with a freshly cleaned barrel.
@Varminterror has a valid point about testing goals and exceding requirements, but I'm not sure I agree entirely with the application he suggests. If I want to improve my 10 shot strings for steel silhouette purposes, I think multiple 10 shot groups repeated consistently in the same manner would be a more valid sample than 20 or 50 shot groups fired consecutively would be.
I also apply his point a little differently for hunting purposes. I really only need a 2 to 3moa group for just about any shot I need to make out to 300yds. I'm generally not happy until I have repeatable 3 shot groups that are 1 moa or less. This insures that my "expected" performance always exceeds the "required" performance. Thus, if I have any missed shots, they are almost certainly due the variables that I or the weather introduced and not due to my ammo or equipment.
If I just accepted 2 to 3moa test groups as sufficient, most likely I'm not getting the actual "required" performance in the field as consistently as needed.
@Varminterror has a valid point about testing goals and exceding requirements, but I'm not sure I agree entirely with the application he suggests. If I want to improve my 10 shot strings for steel silhouette purposes, I think multiple 10 shot groups repeated consistently in the same manner would be a more valid sample than 20 or 50 shot groups fired consecutively would be.
I also apply his point a little differently for hunting purposes. I really only need a 2 to 3moa group for just about any shot I need to make out to 300yds. I'm generally not happy until I have repeatable 3 shot groups that are 1 moa or less. This insures that my "expected" performance always exceeds the "required" performance. Thus, if I have any missed shots, they are almost certainly due the variables that I or the weather introduced and not due to my ammo or equipment.
If I just accepted 2 to 3moa test groups as sufficient, most likely I'm not getting the actual "required" performance in the field as consistently as needed.
do you run a dry patch down the barrel before the first shot? bullet jacket material is, most always, guilding metal. What coatings are you using? I am in the "not necessary" crowd on this one.
luck,
murf
AJC1
Member
I don't oil bores because I run stainless. I clean with mineral spirits and just shoot em.
OP
OP
the Black Spot
Member
In case I wasn’t clear from my first post. I’m testing handloads to find what’s accurate in my rifle. Goal is to find a load that works for deer and coyotes out to 200-250 yds. So testing different bullets, powder combos etc. is where I’m at. So to find the most accurate load, I test each load(ex 49 gr I-4350 with Sierra 100 gr boa tail, then 49.5, etc etc) from the same barrel cleanness, hence my brush/swab sequence between each test load. Friend of mine doesn’t hardly ever clean between load testing and can still get 1/2” groups at 100yds with a 7-08. That’s why the question I first posted, “am I wasting my time cleaning between test loads”?
JerkyFreak
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"That’s why the question I first posted, “am I wasting my time cleaning between test loads”?"
Yes
Yes
Varminterror
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Yes. And if you’re not getting the same results, the cleaning between groups without refouling with a handful of shots before each group, that may actually be contributing to why you’re not.
My load dev doesn’t involve cleaning between groups either, and I’d consider 1/2” at 100yrds indicative of a problem for some of my rifles.
I'm far from an expert, but it seems to me your testing should be as close to what you'll actually be doing. However, IMHO cleaning out the barrel frequently isn't going to help you find an accurate load. I'd think you'll find it one way or another, cleaning or not. For a hunting load, what is your goal? A 4" group at 200 Yards? You're not shooting bench rest, you're shooting deer and/or Coyote. How accurate do you need to be? IMHO trying to get too accurate, is a waste of time for that application, but that's just my opinion, accuracy is good, and more is better, but at a point, will it make a difference in real world application?
I would separate out different bullets and test them separately. You can probably come up with a good load for each bullet as long as it is withing the weight the rifling will support, should be able to load for each bullet, but I'd just pick one and refine a load for that bullet. If it were me, doing more than one bullet and weight I'd get all confused about what might have made any difference. Is it the powder type, amount, bullet weight, too many variables for me and my weak mind.
I would separate out different bullets and test them separately. You can probably come up with a good load for each bullet as long as it is withing the weight the rifling will support, should be able to load for each bullet, but I'd just pick one and refine a load for that bullet. If it were me, doing more than one bullet and weight I'd get all confused about what might have made any difference. Is it the powder type, amount, bullet weight, too many variables for me and my weak mind.
Varminterror
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Not meaning any offense, but I cut this off here because any solution proposed to finish this statement should really be moot - with the exception of “if that second group is 2”, then we know the rifle just doesn’t shoot, and we need to make serious changes - for example, replacing the barrel or sending it down the river.” Unless we’re talking about a labor of love with some rifle we know can’t be made to shoot small, any rifle shooting 2” groups in load development is a dog.
Varminterror
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@the Black Spot - do this.
Chasing your tail trying a massive matrix of bullet and powder combinations is only going to waste time, money, and energy, and the way most folks end up doing it - by shooting low round count groups of each combo - you’ll inevitably be no better off than picking the “best combo” out of a hat.
Start with a proven bullet and a proven powder combination which are known high performers, and focus there. If they don’t shoot after proper load development, try one more proven recipe - if that doesn’t shoot, the rifle doesn’t shoot, and you know it within 100 rounds and $100, instead of wasting tons of money on different bullets and powder, and instead of burning out half of your barrel life trying to read tea leaves of 3 shot groups between 20 different combinations…
OP
OP
the Black Spot
Member
Thanks!
example: this load is gettin there. Near max. Usually the sweet spot is near max or close to minimum.
barnfrog
Member
No offense taken. I was just going with the numbers he gave in his example.
I’ve done it both ways, trust me, option #2 is far better.
AJC1
Member
Each powder has a place its most happy. Tac is midrange in 308 and 4064 is max. If your testing is supper thorough you may find multiple happy places. I found 2 loading n135. By the components listed I'm thinking your shooting 243. The 87 grain amax is one of those proven bullets Varminterror was talking about.
OP
OP
the Black Spot
Member
AJC1, it’s a 25-06
so, I’m all open to proven bullet/powder combos for 25-06
so, I’m all open to proven bullet/powder combos for 25-06
AJC1
Member
Never owned one but I'm positive someone that has, knows exactly what you need.
GeoDudeFlorida
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You’ll do better worrying less about cleaning between groups and working more on practicing under shooting conditions. Practicing at a bench doesn’t help much unless you’re hunting from a bench. Ditto for shooting using a rest. Any load that gets you a minute of chest cavity group is good enough. Better is minute of heart muscle. Best is the first shot from a cold, clean, dry barrel going through the same fist-sized target as the first shot from a sun-baked, wet, dirty barrel. That’s the best load and what fills freezers.
NMexJim
Member
“25-06 Savage 110 hunting rifle, deer and coyotes to 250 yards” - if I were you with the parameters you’ve given, I’d be interested in cold shot performance. If you are getting consistent performance with 3-shot groups from a cold barrel, then you’re good. Finding that group is the key.
Barrels with hunting tapers usually aren’t very rigid. Barrel harmonics will be more pronounced, and finding a combo that will shoot well could be a bugger. Realistically, a 1” group at 100 yds would be pretty good and meet your criteria. If you can get smaller than that, it’s icing on the cake.
Too, I would suggest you work your range out to 200, 300 yards and see what kind of performance you get. Keep track of you ballistic data - drop and all that.
I haven’t owned a 25-06 in years, but my note include H4350 and H4831. IMR 4350 should work pretty well including good velocity. If your velocity spread is narrow, maybe work with bullet seating in relation to the riflings.
Cleaning? I wouldn’t go for sparkling clean. Just enough to keep fouling down.
I would try to keep it pretty simple.
Barrels with hunting tapers usually aren’t very rigid. Barrel harmonics will be more pronounced, and finding a combo that will shoot well could be a bugger. Realistically, a 1” group at 100 yds would be pretty good and meet your criteria. If you can get smaller than that, it’s icing on the cake.
Too, I would suggest you work your range out to 200, 300 yards and see what kind of performance you get. Keep track of you ballistic data - drop and all that.
I haven’t owned a 25-06 in years, but my note include H4350 and H4831. IMR 4350 should work pretty well including good velocity. If your velocity spread is narrow, maybe work with bullet seating in relation to the riflings.
Cleaning? I wouldn’t go for sparkling clean. Just enough to keep fouling down.
I would try to keep it pretty simple.
GeoDudeFlorida
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- 11,085
Best advice of the thread.
Hugger-4641
Member
I haven't loaded any 100gr bullets in 25-06, but I did load some 120gr Speer Grand Slam and some 117sst for a friends' Stevens bolt action. I got right at moa groups with the Grand Slams and 50.5gr of H4831sc and about the same groups with 117sst. Also got just over 1moa groups with factory Hornady American Whitetail 117gr Interlocks.
AJC1
Member
I liked my experence with grand slams, but I've only shot the .308 165g.
JFrank
Member
I’ve never tried loading for a large powder column small bullet cartridge like a 25-06 however I get what you’re trying to accomplish, when you test different bullets or any component you’ll need to test in small increments of powder for each combo rather then grabbing a random charge.
should have said,"first shot of the day", so you shoot a dry barrel right off.
copper fouling will oxidize and may need some oil as a prophylactic.
luck,
murf
41 Mag
Member
I have been shooting the same basic load from my standard 25-06 for going on 30yrs. It is a hunting rifle that I purchased in order to have a bit more range for the white tails on our property.
It is a factory Rem 700 BDL that I have done nothing to other than switching the factory stock to a Fajen laminate and glass beddingthe action. The same loads still produce the best accuracy and have been proven many times over.
With regards to clean verses fouled barrel. With the original stock, if I cleaned the barrel well, it would take close to 10 shots to settle. After switching to the new stock, it is usually good to go after between 1 and a half dozen. Just depends on which bullets I'm running. The difference in jacket material does show up. It prefers Nosler over anything else, but will shoot great with other brands.
So as a for instance, my grandson and I put a really good cleaning on the barrel. He loaded up a batch of the 110gr Accubond and we verified the zero. The biggest issue that day was the gusting cross wind. The rifle was zeroed at 200yds but we had to set the target up at 250 due to tall grass. The picture shows one low shot which was the first after cleaning, the two together, are where it would normally group.
With this rifle, after cleaning I will usually run a minimum of 6 rounds through just to verify and foul the barrel. After that it goes in the case or safe until after hunting season is over. It has shot like this since it was new and as long as it'll keep doing so, I'll keep trusting it to put meat in the freezer.
It is a factory Rem 700 BDL that I have done nothing to other than switching the factory stock to a Fajen laminate and glass beddingthe action. The same loads still produce the best accuracy and have been proven many times over.
With regards to clean verses fouled barrel. With the original stock, if I cleaned the barrel well, it would take close to 10 shots to settle. After switching to the new stock, it is usually good to go after between 1 and a half dozen. Just depends on which bullets I'm running. The difference in jacket material does show up. It prefers Nosler over anything else, but will shoot great with other brands.
So as a for instance, my grandson and I put a really good cleaning on the barrel. He loaded up a batch of the 110gr Accubond and we verified the zero. The biggest issue that day was the gusting cross wind. The rifle was zeroed at 200yds but we had to set the target up at 250 due to tall grass. The picture shows one low shot which was the first after cleaning, the two together, are where it would normally group.
With this rifle, after cleaning I will usually run a minimum of 6 rounds through just to verify and foul the barrel. After that it goes in the case or safe until after hunting season is over. It has shot like this since it was new and as long as it'll keep doing so, I'll keep trusting it to put meat in the freezer.
