"00" or #4?

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Chuck Farnam has somewhat a similar scenario in the intro to his Rifle and Shotgun book. He recommends a semi-auto rifle first, shotgun second, handgun third. His reasoning is that rifle rounds generate less recoil and have a shorter recovery time than shotguns. Thus, in a multiple attacker scenario at a distance, a rifle is king.
 
SHANE IN MT. - "In the embassies, we loaded #4 Buck in our 870s. We also had 1 oz slugs on hand.

Although I prefer 00 Buck when I'm buying the ammo, I wouldn't discount #4 Buck. 27 pellets of .24 caliber in the 2 3/4" load we used."
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I know for a fact that the standard issue for the shotguns of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept., for many years was #4 buckshot. The issue shotgun was the Ithica 37. I also know that the #4 buckshot worked very effectively against bad guys in the numerous shootings the LASD deputies got into over the years.

I do not know if they still issue #4 buckshot. I think also they have finally retired the Ithica 37 for the Rem. 870, but am not sure.

FWIW.

L.W.
 
Some 4 buck passes the penetration test and others don't. Needless to say, use full power 4 buck if you choose 4 buck.

Police agencies choose things for a variety of reasons, including politics, cost, and lawyer proofing. Also, you can get by with weaker cartridges in a warm climate where the perp is probably wearing a tee shirt, but in the cold areas go full power. Head shots, of course, are the great equalizer.

This hypothetical situation is based on the poster's belief that he is morally and legally justified to use deadly force in this situation. Once shots are fired, other folks will determine if this was the case as far as the law is concerned.
 
Archangel14 said:
Okay gents, here's a hypothetical. I seek your input:

Suppose a scenario where you are confronted by multiple people, angry, excited, and ready to do you, your loved ones and neighbors physical harm. Let's suppose 5 hostile persons. You confront this group in an open area at about 10-20 yards, you demonstrate that you have a shotgun (12 gauge), you firmly, but respectfully ask that they disburse, warn them that the police are coming, and that you will use your firearm to protect yourself and the lives and safety of others if pushed. They do not heed your warning, but instead they advance on you with hostile intentions.

Question: what would you rather have in said shotgun, 00 or #4? Thanks.
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"Demonstrating" the shotgun, and then asking someone to "disburse," would be the felonious Aggravated Robbery - Deadly Weapon in Texas, and a similar offense just about everywhere else. Sorry to be seen as a grammar nazi, and usually I do not correct others' grammar, but seriously, this is not useful, as written. Words indicate intent; better get it right, whether spoken or written, and let's not forget that rioters will video-record their activities, preserving forever a mis-spoken word.

Assuming the protagonist has, instead, demonstrated the shotgun, and requested that the antagonists disperse, well, at least we are not requesting the antagonists' money, but unless the antagonists are already on private property, controlled by the protagonist, the protagonist is likely to be in legal hot water.

OK, now, assuming I am protecting private property, or territory I am legally sworn to defend, against unarmored, lightly-clothed antagonists, who are a true threat, either 00 or #4 buck should suffice at 10 to 20 yards. Beyond 20 yards, I would prefer the larger Buck, or perhaps 000 Buck.

In actual practice, I keep 00 Buck in my 870P duty/defensive shotgun. My chief authorizes 00 and #4, and slugs. At times, I will have slugs and #4 with me.
 
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You can't control who your assailant is. I will NOT sneer at smaller buckshot sizes, but I'm not convinced they're as effective under adverse conditions as larger sizes of buckshot.

If someone attacking me is a 350 pound, 6'6" steroid-pumped biker in full leathers with a handful of PCP up his nose - especially if he's just one of a similar group - I want 00 or even 000 buck in my shotgun.

If I'm set for him/them . . . I figure I'm set for anybody.
 
I hunted deer in New Jersey for many years. It was then a buckshot only
state. All of us patterned our shotguns to get the very best patterns regardless
of the shot size. Most of us came to the opinion that a tight pattern with large
pellets gave the best killing power ON DEER. A lot of guys used 000 magnums.
Because one good hit with a 000 buckshot would kill a deer. I think for people
close up, number 4 would do the job really well.

Zeke
 
00 will drop a hefty whitetail buck at that range, that's the extent of my personal experience.

I don't think too many humans would be able to withstand #4 though. You'd be fine with either.

I personally keep one of those shotgun shell bandoliers locked up with my overly tacticalized 870 'tactical' model. It wears an EOTECH 512 and also has a TLR-1 light on the side plus the Knoxx recoil reducing pistol grip. It's fun to shoot.

Anyhow, that bandolier has everything from 3" slugs, to Winny PDX loads, unplated 00, and target loads. I reckon with a bit of advanced notice, I can tailor a load to the situation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Have used both #4 buck and 00 buck on whitetail deer. Wouldn't hesitate to use either after I've seen the results.

Presently have the 870 loaded with #4 buck.
 
U.S. Customs issued w/w no 4 buck with 27 pellets for decades. They also told S & W how to make their CS-1 revolvers which had to be fixed after they didn't work, and everyone who had to carry one complained about their weight. This was the first time the inspectors had to carry sidearms.
 
"Demonstrating" the shotgun, and then asking someone to "disburse," would be the felonious Aggravated Robbery - Deadly Weapon in Texas, and a similar offense just about everywhere else. Sorry to be seen as a grammar nazi, and usually I do not correct others' grammar, but seriously, this is not useful, as written. Words indicate intent; better get it right, whether spoken or written, and let's not forget that rioters will video-record their activities, preserving forever a mis-spoken word.

Assuming the protagonist has, instead, demonstrated the shotgun, and requested that the antagonists disperse, well, at least we are not requesting the antagonists' money, but unless the antagonists are already on private property, controlled by the protagonist, the protagonist is likely to be in legal hot water.

OK, now, assuming I am protecting private property, or territory I am legally sworn to defend, against unarmored, lightly-clothed antagonists, who are a true threat, either 00 or #4 buck should suffice at 10 to 20 yards. Beyond 20 yards, I would prefer the larger Buck, or perhaps 000 Buck.

In actual practice, I keep 00 Buck in my 870P duty/defensive shotgun. My chief authorizes 00 and #4, and slugs. At times, I will have slugs and #4 with me.
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Yes, I now see my spelling errors. Sorry if I quickly typed things out and didn't meet your level of acceptable prose.;) And I recognize your advice about getting it right, and agree. But, as for your assertion that the scenario would amount to "felonious Aggravated Robbery" (is there any other such level of crime for "aggravated robbery"? Misdemeanor?), I must take exception. It clearly would not be such a crime. At least not in my jurisdiction. I know a thing or two about that, having tried multiple robbery cases before the jury. Confronting a group of would-be offenders, showing a firearm, and asking them to disburse would not likely amount to anything more than misdemeanor brandishing, possibly an unlawful criminal threat, under my state's law. Maybe in different in Texas (I'm in California). But that would depend on the circumstances. Should one leave his home and brandish a shotgun to a few teens who are simply walking down the street making a bit of noise, then you have legal trouble. Take the same action with the same teens who are armed with bats, just smashed the windows on the car next door and who are openly threatening to burn homes down, then I would think you're okay. With that said, I do appreciate your recommendation as to proper shells and that you for your service to our communities.

Others have responded to my OP that the scenario is unlikely and that there are better options than a shotgun. To both I agree. In fact, my scenario is VERY unlikely to occur. And honestly, I would try to think of a million ways to avoid armed confrontation in any event. But with that said, I still want to know what the most effective shot would be. From the replies it appears that #4 or 00 would work. I appreciate all the advice!
 
wild cat mccane said:
Whatever happened to #1?

What's this coming on as THE choice? The stats looked great.
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All I can figure is that there is a great deal of inertia caused by habit. Nine pellets of 00 has been the default loading for more than a century, and it has obviously done quite well in military, police and home defense use. For some purchasers, "double aught" is synonymous with "buckshot."

People looking for more pattern density get three times as much with #4 buck, and considerably reduced danger radius. They also get iffy penetration if the distance stretches out a bit. Sometimes this tradeoff is quite sensible.

#1 buck attempts to split the difference, but a lot of people seem not clearly to appreciate the argument for it. It still gives adequate penetration at any sensible distance but there are more pellets than 00 gives you. I think a lot of people hear that, shrug and order up more 00.

Shrug.jpg
 
Well, I guess if there's no risk of overpenetration....


Nah, I'll still take 41 permanent 25 cal wound cavities over 9 36 cal.

Or, you can load duplex and truly split the difference...4&20
 
It's not about the wound cavity, it's about penetration. I've seen #4 buckshot that only penetrated about 6'' in gel. The most I've seen is 10''. It's also highly affected by clothing and light barriers. Most 00 buck will get you the full 18'', and it's less affected by clothing, or if someone's arms are obstructing their chest.
 
The concerns about the penetration of #4 are valid. I recall, but cannot cite from memory, one test that indicated #4 has inadequate penetration at 25 yards. This was why I have kept my duty shotguns loaded with 00 since 1984, but have often kept a few #4 Buck shells available for select-loading, for times when low penetration would be desirable, such as slim meth heads inside a thin-walled apartment building.

As the OP's specified range was within 20 yards, my previous reply did not differentiate between #4 and 00.

A colleague*, whose serious reading of then-available (Eighties/Nineties) shotgun and handgun ballistics information influenced my choices, stated that #4 was at its best with neck shots. His plan was to put the bead at the base of the neck. With today's jihadis and other mass-murderers being increasingly likely to wear body armor, or explosive suicide vests, neck and face shots have become quite relevant. I cannot say how well #4 Buck might perform, relative to 00, with frontal face shots into the brain.

*This colleague was mentored, in his early years, by Bill Jordan, retired Chief Inspector, US Border Patrol, author of _No Second Place Winner_, from whom he learned much about gun fighting. I can only speculate whether Bill Jordan taught him anything about shotgun ammo.
 
grampajack said:
It's not about the wound cavity, it's about penetration. I've seen #4 buckshot that only penetrated about 6'' in gel. The most I've seen is 10''. It's also highly affected by clothing and light barriers. Most 00 buck will get you the full 18'', and it's less affected by clothing, or if someone's arms are obstructing their chest.
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It may well be best to avoid hitting the arms with 00 Buck, too, especially the lower-recoil loads. One of our SWAT guys hit a suspect's forward-reaching arms with "tactical" 00 Buck, and only one pellet made it past/through the arms, into the chest. The suspect's weapon was sent flying, and the suspect's arms and hands damaged, so the threat was neutralized, but it was not a one-shot "stop."
 
A colleague*, whose serious reading of then-available (Eighties/Nineties) shotgun and handgun ballistics information influenced my choices, stated that #4 was at its best with neck shots. His plan was to put the bead at the base of the neck. With today's jihadis and other mass-murderers being increasingly likely to wear body armor, or explosive suicide vests, neck and face shots have become quite relevant. I cannot say how well #4 Buck might perform, relative to 00, with frontal face shots into the brain.
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This is an incredible point. It seems that no scenario can boil down simply, I think. I would have never thought of targeting the neck/head. This kind of thinking can only come from tons and tons of training. Thanks, good info.
 
In the described situation, I would be wishing for a SBR AK or AR in something like 300BLK...especially given how easy it is to get armor.

I shoot 20ga so 00 is right out anyway. Recently went through a shotgun class and shot #1 vs my usual pref of #3. It makes a ragged hole the size of your fist at 10 yards. As others have said, it doesn't much matter for the one, maybe two attackers you will have time to hit before the other three have closed on you and are shoving your shotgun somewhere you don't want it.
 
Archangel14 said:
This is an incredible point. It seems that no scenario can boil down simply, I think. I would have never thought of targeting the neck/head. This kind of thinking can only come from tons and tons of training. Thanks, good info.
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If there is armor you have to shoot where it is not. Then the better pattern density of smaller buckshot asserts itself as a clear advantage. The lack of FBI-spec torso penetration is moot, for you are not shooting at the torso. Smaller buckshot may prove quite good enough if you are targeting non-armored areas such as a neck or a knee.
 
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