10/22 vs AR-22 Accuracy?

[mavracer]

I paid $570 just for my CMMG upper, which shoots like crap.

I'm sorry but in my experience that would be the exception not the rule or maybe it shoots exactly like your expecting.
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't – you're right,”
Henry Ford
I'm not exactly a nube at this game either I currently have a dozen ARs and 2 extra uppers. I'm on my 3rd barrel on my original 10/22 that I've had nearly 45 years and have had and built a few more 10-22 and couple dozen ARs.
I wouldn't just assume that you can stuff a Kidd barrel in some used cast aluminium Ruger receiver with the factory v block and assume it's going to be the equal of a complete Kidd barreled receiver.

 

[Varminterror]

@Slamfire - I think you have to acknowledge the limitations of the context of how rifles are fired in Service Rifle fire vs. other contexts. Which is largely why world records aren’t being set for smallest group in Service Rifle in general, but sportsmen have acknowledged the shortcomings of the tall profile of the AR-15 for generations already.

But plainly, not all vertical grip necks are truly equal, especially not to the pistol grips of an AR-15.

Comparing the vertical displacements between these rifles, it’s pretty clear to see that the hand is positioned lower on an AR than on the rifle you posted.



Comparing my own rifles, addressing my bolt rifle with a vertical grip stock, my 10/22 with a vertical grip, and one of my AR’s, my middle finger knuckle was 7/8” farther from the bore axis of my AR than on my bolt gun, and 1 1/4” farther than my 10/22. My middle knuckle was 3 1/4” from the bore axis on my bolt gun, versus 4 1/8” on my AR, and only 2 7/8” from the bore axis on my 10/22 - which means the SAME pressure on the pistol grip of my AR vs. my bolt gun would mean 27% greater torque around the bore axis, and the same pressure on the AR vs. my 10/22 would mean 43% greater torque around the bore… meaning greater influence on the rifle, meaning the AR will MOVE more with less erroneous hand pressure than will my bolt gun or my 10/22…



A comparative example of hand position relative to the support, and relative to the bore axis, snagged from the batch of photos taken at the AG cup match this weekend. Pretty obvious to see the longer lever arm on the AR based on that grip position relative to the bore axis. So a little error in hand pressure has much greater influence on that AR grip than it does on the bolt gun.

 

[CraigC]

Not the question, nor what you claimed. Both have the same basic accuracy potential. Both can be crap. Very accurate.22 rifles tend to be expensive, and need relatively expensive ammo to do so.

They 'would' have the same basic potential, I assume because I don't know how much of a limitation the bolt is but in reality, they do not. There simply isn't the equipment available to allow the AR to compete with the 10/22 for accuracy. The aftermarket for AR .22's simply isn't there.

Not seeing the disconnect between what I "claimed" and anything else I've posted.

 

[CraigC]

Really not sure why folks have their knickers in a twist over this. Nor do I see anything to refute what I said. I've never seen an AR .22LR that would shoot half-MOA. If they're out there, please post an example, I'd love to have one.

I'm sorry but in my experience that would be the exception not the rule or maybe it shoots exactly like your expecting.
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't – you're right,”
Henry Ford
I'm not exactly a nube at this game either I currently have a dozen ARs and 2 extra uppers. I'm on my 3rd barrel on my original 10/22 that I've had nearly 45 years and have had and built a few more 10-22 and couple dozen ARs.
I wouldn't just assume that you can stuff a Kidd barrel in some used cast aluminium Ruger receiver with the factory v block and assume it's going to be the equal of a complete Kidd barreled receiver.

So you're telling me the CMMG should shoot more like a KIDD barreled 10/22? Or what, exactly???

I wasn't posting a resume'. You said I was biased, I told you that was incorrect and used the number of AR's in the stable as evidence.

I wouldn't just assume that you can stuff a Kidd barrel in some used cast aluminium Ruger receiver with the factory v block and assume it's going to be the equal of a complete Kidd barreled receiver.

I didn't claim that, did I?

 

[mavracer]

I've never seen an AR .22LR that would shoot half-MOA.

Have you seen a Kidd barreled Ruger (not aftermarket receiver) that would?
Here's the one from the Kidd website from 2005 before they started making their own receiver. None averaged .5 MOA

Here's a link to full article
https://www.kiddinnovativedesign.co...n-Testing-a-New-1022®-Match-Barrel_df_44.html

So you're telling me the CMMG should shoot more like a KIDD barreled 10/22? Or what, exactly???

My point is 2 fold a CMMG with a good trigger and optic and ammo it likes should shoot at least as good as a stock 10/22. Second just slapping a Kidd barrel in a used 10/22 receiver won't get the accuracy that a full Kidd barreled action and is likely a waste as the cast aluminium receiver and attachment is the weak link.

If they're out there, please post an example, I'd love to have one.

This is from the review of the JP upper
http://www.majorpandemic.com/2017/01/jp-rifles-supermatch-22lr-ar15-upper-review.html?m=1

I'd get one but I have a CCI Std Vel budget

 

[PistoleroWadcutterGANG]

JP first iteration of this was made by Nordic for JP. JP in later version started putting their own barrels on them. Both are legitimate barrel nut AR style mounting. The JP and Nordic Bolts are very much engineered / designed like Ruger 10/22's in terms of return spring / extractor BUT with a AR15 designed firing pin. No internal railed / false chamber and feed ramp adapters stubs; mechanism of the CMMG types. I think its is a variation on the Atchisson design. (iirc, probably not). The Nordics and Jp's as a standard box product will out shoot Ruger Box standard and competition models. When comparing people always like to say "With a match barrel this or that" that's not a stock Ruger then. The bad point though is it seems Nordic has stopped any kind of customer service on them. I tried for a year trying to get people on the phone or email to get extra replacement parts (firing pin, return spring and extractor spring and extractor). I never tried my hunch that the Ruger factory extractor and spring would work. Last my comments are only in regard to the Nordic and JP models. Smith and Wesson variant and HK's or others I've only observed their function or more precisely, sporadic function. Its a shame that Nordic doesn't try a better job at CS and advertising these. They are really well made.

 

[CraigC]

Have you seen a Kidd barreled Ruger (not aftermarket receiver) that would?

Uh, yeah. Got one.

My point is 2 fold a CMMG with a good trigger and optic and ammo it likes should shoot at least as good as a stock 10/22.

Well, mine doesn't. Okay. I said a 10/22 with a good barrel would shoot circles around the average .22LR AR. You say the CMMG should shoot like a stock Ruger. Doesn't that kinda reiterate my original point, that you argued with???

Second just slapping a Kidd barrel in a used 10/22 receiver won't get the accuracy that a full Kidd barreled action...

Where did I claim this???

.....and is likely a waste as the cast aluminium receiver and attachment is the weak link.

What are you talking about??? People have literally been doing that exact thing for over three decades.

This is from the review of the JP upper
http://www.majorpandemic.com/2017/01/jp-rifles-supermatch-22lr-ar15-upper-review.html?m=1

I'd get one but I have a CCI Std Vel budgetView attachment 1161686

So you don't even have one?

Quote from the article:

"Most people do not think of the AR15 as a precision .22LR platform"

Isn't that what I said? The JP is the exception, no doubt. Which also means it's not your typical .22 AR. Which is what I was referring to. It also costs a lot more, so there's that too.

 

[mavracer]

Where did I claim this???

Uh, yeah. Got one.

Okay. I said a 10/22 with a good barrel would shoot circles around the average .22LR AR.

No that's not what you said

A 10/22 with a good barrel is going to shoot circles around the AR.

So you don't even have one?

Nope like I said in my first post I have a cheap PSA upper that shoots just as good as my 10/22 with a "good" barrel comparable to the Whistle pig OP mentioned.
They'll both shoot 1 MOA on demand shooting CCI SV or Norma TAC.
Which ironically is all Kidd guarantees with their complete rifles.

 

[mavracer]

"Most people do not think of the AR15 as a precision .22LR platform"

"Confirmation bias, a phrase coined by English psychologist Peter Wason, is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms or strengthens their beliefs or values and is difficult to dislodge once affirmed."

 

[CraigC]

Yes, let's read the OP again.

"What should I expect in accuracy difference between a 10/22 say with an aftermarket barrel (nothing too fancy, say a whistlepig), and a dedicated AR-22 upper like CMMG's resolute?"

"Confirmation bias, a phrase coined by English psychologist Peter Wason, is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms or strengthens their beliefs or values and is difficult to dislodge once affirmed."

Back to this??? Wrong. It's not bias. Did I ever say the AR platform in general was not capable of very good accuracy? Nope. Did I say it was impossible to build an accurate AR .22? Negative. I said no one did, to my knowledge. My opinion and comment was based on the performance of uppers like the CMMG (which is what the OP asked about), or factory built guns like the S&W 15/22, as it compared to 30yrs of 10/22 experience. In fact, I did not even know the JP version existed. As I said, it's the rare exception and one the OP did not ask about.

Still doesn't change my statement or the overall sentiment. It's easy to build a highly accurate 10/22. Whereas AR .22's that exhibit the same level of accuracy are not common and certainly not cheap when they are encountered. Why you chose to rake me over the coals over this is beyond me.

 

[LiveLife]

10/22 ... aftermarket barrel ... whistlepig

"WhistlePig" gun barrel? I had to look that up and found it's a real brand of gun barrel company now called AccuLite Barrel - https://www.acculite22.com/

I tell you, learn something new on THR ...

accuracy difference between a 10/22 ... with an aftermarket barrel... and a dedicated AR-22 upper

If you are talking about factory stock 10/22 with just the barrel swap, there are other factors to consider that can affect group size.

My 10/22 came with 7.5 lb factory trigger which will definitely add trigger input to move muzzle away from POA (Even though trigger pull reduced to 4.5 lbs after 4000 round break-in, I still saw trigger input induced push/pull away from POA). Factory bolt with non-captured firing pin will also add to increasing frequency of flyers. And if you are free-floating the barrel or using bull barrel without barrel band, you also need to factor receiver movement in stock to consider bedding the receiver to stock to eliminate movement when trigger is pulled.

For the "Real World Accurizing 22LR on the cheap" thread, consideration was made to test KSA bull barrel with 10/22 receiver but with factory stock parts, found heavy trigger and factory non-captured firing pin bolt would limit the bull barrel's potential - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-accurizing-22lr-on-the-cheap.898035/

So after Volquartsen 2.5 lb trigger kit (Now broken in down to 2.25 lb), CPC reworked bolt with captured firing pin, Tactical Solutions V-block to better secure the barrel to receiver, free-floating the barrel and securing the rear of receiver to full-size modular stock; even with factory taper barrel with 6500 round count, I am getting 1/2"-3/4" groups at 50 yards using CCI SV and 3/4"-1" groups with Aguila 40 gr LRN/CPRN consistently.

I read report of many dedicated 22LR AR uppers are capable of around/sub 3/4"-1" groups at 50 yards out of the box with CCI SV/Aguila 40 gr LRN/CPRN so if you are comparing factory stock 10/22 with just the barrel swap to AR22, group size could be comparable depending on the factory barrel you end up with.

Of course, sky is the limit to further accurizing 10/22 to produce smaller groups than dedicated AR22 upper out of the box like the CMMG Resolute but not sure if there is a budgetary constraint. For me, I had considered swapping out the factory 10/22 barrel with an aftermarket bull barrel once rifling was worn enough to affect accuracy but 1/2"-3/4" 50 yard groups with CCI SV/Aguila 40 gr LRN/CPRN is plenty accurate for me. So the KSA bull barrel will stay on T/CR22 as I put the BCA dedicated 22LR upper through its paces.

And I want to point out the difference between "CMMG 22LR conversion bolt" compared to "dedicated 22LR AR upper". While they use the same magazine, operational accuracy is very different as dedicated 22LR uppers have typical 1:16 twist rate barrel with bore made for 22LR diameter bullet. But using conversion bolt in .223/5.56 AR barrels with 1:7/1:8/1:9 twist rate 16"/18"/20" barrels does not produce utmost accuracy and I use my CMMG conversion bolts for AR shooting drills at closer range.

I hope this helped.

 

[LiveLife]

Yes, let's read the OP again.

"... 10/22 say with an aftermarket barrel (nothing too fancy, say a whistlepig), and a dedicated AR-22 upper like CMMG's resolute?"

I think OP is looking at the following comparison to see which may produce smaller groups.

• 10/22 with aftermarket barrel $233 - WhistlePig/AccuLite 16.5" Anodize Barrel and Hogue OverMolded stock - https://www.acculite22.com/product-p/huntcombo.htm

• CMMG Mk4 Resolute 22LR upper $660 - https://www.opticsplanet.com/cmmg-mk4-resolute-upper-receiver-group.html

So with factory stock 10/22 and free-floated aftermarket barrel in Hogue stock, factory trigger/bolt may produce groups larger than from CMMG dedicated 22LR upper. But with over $400 difference, you can also upgrade the 10/22 trigger, bolt, etc. to accurize 10/22 further to perhaps produce smaller groups.

 

[Varminterror]

Not for nuthin', as they say, but....

The money spent to build a 10/22 or AR-22 to the performance being discussed is absolutely smashed by buying a Bergara, Tikka, or CZ, even some used Win 52's will be within reach here. We can't get to the level of the Annies, Vudoo, RimX, or the import Biathlon rifles, but we can take a bet on higher spend for buying/rebuilding these semiautos, OR we can almost assuredly get better results for less cost with a stickshift. It's not the fun answer, but it's a real one.

 

[LiveLife]

The money spent to build a 10/22 or AR-22 to the performance being discussed is absolutely smashed by buying a Bergara, Tikka, or CZ, even some used Win 52's will be within reach here. We can't get to the level of the Annies, Vudoo, RimX, or the import Biathlon rifles, but we can take a bet on higher spend for buying/rebuilding these semiautos, OR we can almost assuredly get better results for less cost with a stickshift. It's not the fun answer, but it's a real one.

Good point.

OP @nugi didn't specify the purpose of the build whether casual plinking/target shooting or competition/match. Just accuracy difference.

What should I expect in accuracy difference

If OP simply wanted which route would produce smaller groups for range blasting, IMO it may be comparable group size for similar amount of money spent with 10/22 possibly producing smaller groups with more careful accurizing parts selection.

If OP wants to compete or simply wants to pursue the smallest group size, my vote is for 10/22 due to availability of components or a good bolt action as suggested at likely lower cost.

 

[nugi]

Pursuing small groups casually, not competition I understand a bolt is better for that, I'd like an automatic rimfire for flexibility in application but groupings will be the main one.

Sounds like a custom 10/22 is not only likely to be more accurate but an easier platform to build on. If they were truly equal options I'd be hard-pressed not to lean into the multi-caliber flexibility of the AR.

I mentioned Whistlepig/Acculite because they seem to be the most common aftermarket barrel that isn't a KIDD or a TacSol but I've actually been talking with Clint Beyer at http://beyerbarrels.com/

 

[mavracer]

I mentioned Whistlepig/Acculite because they seem to be the most common aftermarket barrel that isn't a KIDD or a TacSol but I've actually been talking with Clint Beyer at

Beyer makes a match grade AR15 22 barrel that works with a CMMG style bolt.
Here's a writeup
http://www.majorpandemic.com/2014/07/cmmg-beyer-dedicated-ar15-22LR-upper-review.html?m=1

 

[mavracer]

So with factory stock 10/22 and free-floated aftermarket barrel in Hogue stock, factory trigger/bolt may produce groups larger than from CMMG dedicated 22LR upper. But with over $400 difference, you can also upgrade the 10/22 trigger, bolt, etc. to accurize 10/22 further to perhaps produce smaller groups.

Provided the person isn't sitting on a nice 5.56 AR with a nice trigger in the lower already and no 10/22.
Also with this thread as an inspiration, research would say the CMMG is a waste of 200-300 bucks compared to PSA, RTB and BCA. Looks like Nordic or building one with a Beyer barrel is a much better option in the $550-$600 range.
And I agree if your on a CCI SV budget chasing 1/4" @ 50 groups is a fool's errand

 

[gotboostvr]

Pursuing small groups casually, not competition I understand a bolt is better for that, I'd like an automatic rimfire for flexibility in application but groupings will be the main one.

Sounds like a custom 10/22 is not only likely to be more accurate but an easier platform to build on. If they were truly equal options I'd be hard-pressed not to lean into the multi-caliber flexibility of the AR.

I mentioned Whistlepig/Acculite because they seem to be the most common aftermarket barrel that isn't a KIDD or a TacSol but I've actually been talking with Clint Beyer at http://beyerbarrels.com/

I think possibly instead of trying to build one Jack of All Trades rifle, a better application of funds might be something like a decent AR22 set up as a short range plinker, and something like a Savage bolt 22 as your precision rig.

The Savage would likely shoot a well as a slightly tuned up 10/22, and you'd be free to put a scope more suited to precision shooting, and an optic more geared to shorter range, quicker sight acquisition on the AR22. Horses for courses. The Savage can be had for as little as the 10/22's aftermarket barrels will go for.

Just an option to consider. I'm doing something similar, I'm in the process of building a spare upper to use on lowers I already have based on a CMMG conversion bolt I got for cheap, a free stripped upper, and an old barrel and handguard I had laying around.

I'm not too worried that it won't shoot MOA, as it's good enough for off hand, shoot and scoot drills in my 1:7 upper, should be fine in this 1:8 upper where I can just leave the conversion bolt parked semi-permanently.

Then I'm thinking I might treat myself to the Savage for Christmas.

 

[mavracer]

I think possibly instead of trying to build one Jack of All Trades rifle, a better application of funds might be something like a decent AR22 set up as a short range plinker, and something like a Savage bolt 22 as your precision rig.

Umm D All of the above is always the most correct answer.
Plinker AR

More precise AR

Plinker Ruger

More precise Ruger

Plus some stick shifts

 

[PistoleroWadcutterGANG]

Stick-Shift's ..... I Like that. Regards

 

[DustyGmt]

I don't remember paying less than $200 for any of my Geissele triggers in my AR's.

The best time to buy a Geissele trigger or Geissele anything really is Memorial Day, Independence Day, Christmas and I think sometimes Easter. The higher end Geissele triggers that usually run $240 all year get knocked down to $160 and the less expensive ones Like the Geissele 2 stage that are around $140-$160 go on sale for $99 and sometimes even less. I've been meaning to pick up a SD-C and SD-3G but priorities, I will be ready for the next federal holiday and grab some great deals. Last deal I got from Geissele was a BCG (not the G enhanced) for $100 instead of $140.

Definitely check the deals around the big holidays, they usually last all weekend depending on inventory/availability.

 

[TonyAngel]

I don't know why this has to be an either/or discussion. Neither are really expensive, get both.

I have an AR22. CMMG barrel and bolt, thrown into a cheap slick side upper with a 1-4x PST on top. At 100 yards, it's a golf ball killer with CCI SV. If you have one that shoots like crap, well, it happens I suppose.

I also have a 10/22 laying around somewhere. It shoots pretty good too. I actually had a 10/22 at one time that I threw so much money at that it actually got me to the middle of the pack in the precision matches I used to shoot. Of course, I didn't start winning until I got a bolt gun.

If you want a target rifle, get yourself a CZ or maybe even a Ruger Precision that will cost you about what you're gonna wind up putting into the 10/22 to get it to shoot.

Still, I think 10/22s are easier to shoot well and there is more stuff for them meant to "improve" accuracy. AR22s are more fun and look cooler.

I suppose that if I had to choose the one with the most accuracy potential, I'd have to go with the 10/22. Just don't expect it to shoot less than MOA.