10/22 Vs Shotty with birdshot

[Rockstar]

Birdshot is not an effective load for 100lb+ mammals at any range. Whether it breaks up or not, it doesn't penetrate deeply enough to be effective. You can look at historical examples, like the James gang raid on Northfield where Clell Miller caught a blast of birdshot in the face at short range from Elias Stacy. The only thing that stopped Stacy from being killed by Miller was Henry Wheeler shooting him with a rifle.

Modern shotguns are no more effective with birdshot. I've talked to people who received a 12ga shell of birdshot from 15' in the upper chest and made their own 911 call. .22LR isn't great; but it is more likely to go where it is aimed (especially with someone less skilled behind the trigger) and it will penetrate better than birdshot.

With due respect for Bartholomew, (because I agree with him 99% of the time) I believe that his anecdotes aren't factual. A full load of #8 shot @ 15' will blow your head off and will certainly more than penetrate the chest cavity, assuming no body armor. One-hundred-year-old "recollections" of the activities of the James Gang don't make for good science. Spend your life in Quail Country, and you'll know a little more about the effects of birdshot at close range. I have attended several murder trials over the years where the weapon was a shotgun loaded with birdshot. Let's use, as an example, a 12 ga. full choke loaded up with 3 1/4, 1 1/4 #8 @ 15'.

 

[Fred Fuller]

There are no magic bullets no matter what their size. All are governed by the same physical laws as everything else. Projectiles fired from small arms depend on two things for effectiveness- penetration and placement. If you don't have proper placement and you don't get sufficient penetration it doesn't matter very much WHAT you are shooting.

Noting in passing that the plural of anecdotes is not data, I have seen one-shot stops with both rimfires and 12 ga. birdshot in several years spent working as an EMT. But I have seen failures to stop from both too- no way can anyone say without qualification that one is 'better' than the other. It depends on placement and penetration. Either one can be lethal. Or not.

Any person trying to plan for self defense with a firearm had best consider the biggest variable in the equation- the shooter. Software is more important than hardware...

lpl/nc

 

[gonzo_beyondo]

Interesting article, and a thread resulting from it here

PROCTOR, Ark. - A 94-year-old man who accidentally shot himself in the abdomen while cleaning his shotgun is expected to make a full recovery, despite waiting until the next morning to ask for help.

Sturghill waited for a home health care nurse to arrive about 8:30 a.m. Monday before asking for medical attention.

Before the nurse arrived, Sturghill had cleaned the wound and wrapped it with a towel, Martin said.

Now notice two things... 94 years old! Birdshot in abdomen point blank!
The guy just chilled, till the next day, got treated, and is still fine.

Folks... I'll take the .22LR with something suitable in the magazine, like high velocity hollow points... before I trust my life to something that won't seriously damage a frail 94 year old man at point blank range. Anecdotal bullpatties from cowboy days aside, this is reality.

One person in the thread makes the valid point:

Birdshot, by definition, is made to kill small, thin skinned creatures with hollow bones while doing as little damage as possible. What makes people use the same load to try to stop a 200 pound felon that they would use to kill a seven pound bird?

And I believe the news story backs this up, 110%

Now with this information on the table...
Who still wants to rely on birdshot to save their life? How many shots would it take to put down a 94 year old? How many to put down a 200lb felon hopped up on meth?

 

[Deathrider1579]

I vote for a combination of flechete shells and those nifty flame thrower rounds (I'm Kidding btw)

I would go with the .22 lr given the options with the biggest mag that worked reliably and a few spares.

-DR

 

[1911JMB]

For home defense, I'd take the shotgun. As muscle car enthusiasts say, there is no replacement for displacement. But for bird hunting, I'd take the 10/22, dripping in CLP with any production regular to high velocity ammo. I use my 4 power scoped 10/22 for crow hunting at beyond shotgun range, and it works rather well with my 50 round magazine.

 

[benEzra]

Given the ammo limitations on the shotgun, I'll take a 10/22 with a 25 or 50-round magazine, a Choate stock, and a red-dot please...

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

With due respect for Bartholomew, (because I agree with him 99% of the time) I believe that his anecdotes aren't factual. A full load of #8 shot @ 15' will blow your head off and will certainly more than penetrate the chest cavity, assuming no body armor.

Sure they will penetrate; but will they penetrate deeply enough to stop a threat? Probably not since #8 birdshot from 9' doesn't even penetrate more than 4.5" in jello (see previous link). What happens is you can get something like this:

http://radiographics.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/19/5/1358/F12A

As for whether the anecdote was factual. I wasn't at the shooting so I can't confirm the details. I can confirm the person telling it was struck in the upper chest by birdshot based on the scarring. I can confirm he had a tape of a 911 call with his voice making the call. I feel confident this person was being truthful.

But we don't have to rely on that anecdote, since there are more than a few documented instances:

Here is a story of a man shot by birdshot in the face at household distances. He survived by running to the road and hitching a ride to the hospital.

A tragic story of a 14yr. old girl struck in the face by birdshot fired by her stepfather as she stood on the porch with her mother. She was blinded but survived.

Teenager shot in the hip with birdshot from end of car as he stands at passenger window. Victim runs to his mother's car for cover and survives.

 

[f4t9r]

Pick the shotgun
as for 22 ammo just try diff ones and see what works , oddly what works in one may not work as well in another

 

[dwave]

Not unless the ranges in your house are a lot bigger than the ranges in mine. At typical HD ranges, even a load of #9 should stay together, not getting a whole lot bigger than a slug. It doesn't just form a 3-ft pattern right out of the muzzle.

No it doesn't, but the pattern really depends on the gun, but even if the shot only opened up 1 or 2 inches, that is still better than a .22 inch pattern that doesn't open up a .22 will give.

I would take the shotgun because I have 15 feet to the door from my room, and that would be plenty for the pattern to open up with the shotgun I have.

 

[middy]

10/22 everytime.

 

[bowfin]

When did we start calling them "shotties"? I must not have gotten the memo. It doesn't even save us a syllable's worth of work!

Anyhow, I seem to recall a pheasant hunter in Montana whose pointer fetched him up a grizzly bear, which took offense. The grizzly bear immediately succumbed to three loads of #6 steel at close range. I can't imagine more than one victim in a hundred surviving a modern shotshell to the head or torso when shot at 10 feet or less, but that just might be my imagination's fault. I am sure some have, but former Senator Bob Dole was hit by a 37mm Flak gun and survived.

 

[1911Tuner]

HD Shotgun

Testing on drywall and ballistic gelatin several years ago lead me to the conclusion that a very good scattergun home defense round is the 12 gauge 2 and 3/4 inch magnum loaded with 24 pellets of #4 buckshot. Hard hitter...enough penetration at close range even against heavy clothing, and a single sheet of drywall will slow it to the point that, while it would cause some damage, it wouldn't penetrate much beyond an inch or two in gelatin after hitting the sheetrock at 20 feet. 20 foot penetration in bare gelatin was about 10 inches (with shot charge opening up inside the block into a 4-inch cone within 6 inches of penetration. Very nasty wound potential)...and 6-8 inches after going through a heavy winter coat. Testing done with a 20-inch coach gun w/barels bored cyl and cyl.

Longer barrels would probably yield different results due to velocity increase.

Another pretty good one is the old 3" 20 gauge with #1 Buck...but I haven't seen any of that ammo in several years.

 

[akodo]

"only" 4.5 inches of penetration?

Look at a 4.5 inch knifeblade. Looks plenty long to reach vital organs for me.

I checked out those pictures, and even the #8 shot, the first 3 inches were torn to hell.

In my gun saftey class the game warden brought in pictures of accidental shootings, all of which involved shotguns. Suffice to say, those were instantly lethal wounds.

The shotgun is going to tear one hell of a wound, lots of shock, lots of bloodloss.

.22s have a reputation of hitting the heart but not killing the person until 10 minutes later.

However, do you own experiments. Go buy some pumpkins, or watermelon, or watever, and blast them