10m zero for a m-14

[wgungho]

The truth of the matter is that we're sending our boys and girls in harm's way with damn little expertise. I live in a military area (Tidewater, Virginia), frequent the VA hospital, and personally know more than a few returnees, from both the hills and the sand box. Budgets don't allow much in way of weapons live fire, and often troops are given weapons in the field that they've NEVER handled before. The situation is changing now, but if a troop wanted a set of first class body armor, he had to buy it himself. I know marines who bought their own weapons, as in .308, becasue their issue 16s didn't cut it at long range. Ask anyone with rank in a reserve unit about their training budgets. You're liable to see tears. Reserve units here in Virginia (I don't know about elsewhere) are ofter REQUIRED to leave behind their equiptment for incoming units, with no planned replacement. And they WILL be going back.

 

[Langenator]

Turk-in case you missed it, the man stated that he's deployed. As in downrange, in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

To the best of my knowledge, most if not all of the M14s currently available, at least in the Army, are with units in theater. They get handed off to new units rotating into theater when the old unit leaves, just like the Humvees and a bunch of other equipment. So guys don't get a chance to train with them before they deploy. And since the M14 was phased out over 30 years ago, there's little to no institutional experience left, outside of SF.

The SDM position isn't currently allocated much special training. It just means, mostly, that they take the best shooter in each squad and give him some shiny optics (like an ACOG) for his M4/M16. And remember, a 5.56 ACOG isn't the same as a 7.62 one.

Now, in my previous tour at Ft Lewis, my unit was lucky, in that we had a good working relationship with some guys at 1st SF Group, and we got to send our snipers and SDMs out to do training with them. Helped out a bunch when the unit got sent to Iraq (Nov '03-Nov '04).

 

[Turk]

Langenator,

It's hard for me to believe that a squad leader, platoon sarg, platoon leader or company commander would issue to their troops weapons and basically say figure out how to use them and if that is the case like I said in an early post if we need to pack up and go home.


By the way I do understand what deployed means and I also understand a leaders duty to his men in combat.

Turk
173rd Abn. Bdge (sep)
RVN 68-69

 

[Grump]

Will the bullet have even stabilized at 10 yards?

GIVE ME A BREAK!!! AND YES, I _KNOW_ MY CAPS LOCK IS ON...ON PURPOSE!!

Go back and read some real science on bullet precession and bullet stability. The "settling in" you *might* be alluding to is still measured in .001s of an inch at 10 yards AND 10 meters.

Heck, even UNSTABLE bullets are still flying straight at 10 yards.

We need more data--the critical element is the centerline of the scope above the bore. Measure to the nearest .10 of an inch (and tell us if it is - or + to your figure) from the middle of the scope to the fattest part of the receiver ring (eyeball to the chamber to make sure).

I've seen one scoped '14 that had 2.8 inches scope line above bore line. That will really affect the calculations, guys 'n gals!

Our troop needs to tell us the sight heighth. We *could* guess if he tells us the scope mount...

 

[AZgunstudent]

Wow, some of you guys are pretty harsh. I'm in the National Guard, and I know for a fact that guys get deployed with poor training all the time. As long as the unit is "validated," off they go.

A recruiter I know got deployed even though he was utterly unable to qualify with the M9, which he would be carrying in Iraq (in addition to an M16A2). Another young soldier I know "qualified" with the M9 by firing a .22. I am not at all surprised that a DM was given a rifle with little training on how to use it, especially in an area considered esoteric (yes, sight adjustment is a scary thing to the Army) by military personnel.

For the doubting Thomases in our midst, my personal friend SPC Ryan Kyler (D Co 1/180 SECFOR) is also using a scoped M14 in Iraq as I type this, though I don't have a picture of him. However, I do not doubt in the least that the vast, vast majority of squad/platoon leaders in the Army have no idea how to run an M14. Most of them don't even remember the M16A1, and some have probably never even used an M16A2. These are guys in their twenties, who probably joined the Army only a few years ago.

I always get the impression from threads like this that non-military people think Army small arms training is far more extensive and intense than it actually is.

 

[riverdog]

A simple "yes" would have been fine. Nothing is gained by being a ????????.

With the link to the Ballistic Calculator provided he should be able to figure it out for himself.

 

[30Cal]

Sight height = 1.09"
M80 Vel = 2750fps
M80 BC = 0.39
M80 bullet weight = 147grs

... For a 300yd zero, that would be .25" low at 10m. The bullet will cross above the line of sight at around 20yds.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Ty, using your numbers, our calculators still don't agree - who is right? Mine says the bullet will cross (as the bullet is heading up above the line of sight) at 12 yrds., and at 30 yrds, it is 1.6" above LOS. It peaks at about 178 yards, when it is 7.8" above LOS.

I can't understand your sentence above. Pls double check, just for shucks and grins.

Dave

Dave, I re-ran my numbers (using Handloads.com calculator and default environmental conditions) and you are 100% correct. Honestly, the 20yds figure I grabbed was a interpolation between a 200yd and a 300yd zero--the point I was trying to get across was that regardless of which of those ranges you zero at, the bullet at 10m will still be below the line of sight.

At 10m, the trajectory is very sensitive to sight height and zero range. Zero'ing at 10m is not much better than just boresighting the rifle at 10-20yds.

 

[226]

How do I sight-in my M1 Garand or M1A/M14-type rifle?

M14 zero target


.

 

[ScottsGT]

I always get the impression from threads like this that non-military people think Army small arms training is far more extensive and intense than it actually is.

Aww, come on now, we know it is. I just saw Gary Cooper in Sgt. York two weeks ago. We see what kind of traning you guys get in the movies.
I live across I-20 from Ft. Jackson, and used to be able to drive all over the base before 9/11. Would watch recruits walking around with the M-16 with the red blank adaptor on them all the time. I think they only issued them arms so they would get used to carrying one, not actually using it.

 

[Steve Smith]

If you are real:
Start with your iron sights as they will be there when you drop your rifle on your scope and ruin it. I have been in Iraq and I know you guys slap a $29 Tasco or Bushnell on a rifle and call it good so do yourself a favor and sight in your irons first. Put them 1/2" below POA at 10M and if you ever get a chance test it at 300. A 300 yard zero will get you a solid hit from 0-400 when you aim at the center of an enemy's chest. If you can't dope wind don't shoot past 300 or you'll be wasting ammo...don't fool yourself into thinking you can do it. Wind moves a bullet way more than you think.

Now, set your scope up to similar aim points and be sure you know how to get that POS off when you really need to hit something.

Of all the M14 guys I saw in the desert, only a handfull had scopes attached and you could tell that those guys knew everything about their rifles and scopes and they were cared for very differently than the plethora of M16s there. They of course had nice bedding work and very nice scopes to match but these guys were trained and dealdy...and serious. The average M14 shooter did not have a scope and it was a rack grade and they were left with iron sights.

 

[infantryman21]

SCOPE

I AM I AVID DEER HUNTER TO START WITH AND DON'T BUY ANTHING FOR A RIFEL OR SHOTGUN CHEAP MY DAD GOT ME A TACTICAL SCOPE BY EAGEL IS ANYONE HAS A COMMENT ON IF ITS GOOD OR NOT LET ME KNOW ITS A LIGHTED RETICEL AND ITS 6-24X50 OR 40 I THINK AND A NICE MOUNT SO IT WASN'T CHEAP LIKE A TASCO MODEL WITCH BLOWS. I ALSO HAVE ALL THE BALLISTICS CHARTS FOR THE M118 LONG RANGE CARTRIDGE WITCH I WILL BE SHOOTING AND DUE TO TERRAIN AND SOP'S I WILL NOT ENGAGE ANYTHING PAST 500m PROBABLY. ALSO SOME UNITS WILL ACTUALY ORDER SCOPES FOR SOLDIERS AND EVERYTHING THEY NEED AND SEND THEM TO SCHOOL BUT WHERE IM AT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I HAVE IT SET UP AS MUCH AS I FEEL LIKE PAYING OUT OF POCKET DUE TO THE UNIT NOT ORDERING THE PROPER EQUIPMENT SO I HAVE TO PAY OUT OF MY OWN PAY CHECK SO I DONT FEEL LIKE SPENDING A SMALL FORTUNE. I WILL ATACH PICTURES AT THE END OF THE MONTH WHEN I GET ALL MY STUFF PUT ON.