10mm and a Cape Buffalo

[Northalius]

EDIT: Looking through my chrono data notebook, DoubleTap's 200gr. XTP averaged 1260fps from my 6.5" S&W 610, or 50fps slower than Buffalo Bore's heavier 265gr. load from a 2.5" shorter barrel. Not exactly "on par" with the .41 magnum.

DoubleTap sells a 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth round which is advertised at 1300 fps from a 4.6" Glock 20 barrel. Push that up with a 6" barrel, and you're pushing around .41 Magnum territory from Buffalo Bore. If there were 6 1/2" barrels for a Glock 20, even more!

The .41 Magnum is more powerful, but for a semi auto, the 10mm is AWESOME when properly loaded! Having that power in a 16 round capacity package?

P.S. sorry to bump an ancient topic, but was doing a search for Ted Nugent taking down Cape Buffalo in Africa with his 10mm Glock 20, and saw this.

I bet if you handload the 10mm, you can closely match the .41 Magnum without being in too much of a risk. Just have a very well supported barrel, NEW, GOOD brass, and I think you're good to go.

 

[Gun Slinger]

Having actually hunted and taken two Cape Buffalo (as well as numerous other big/dangerous game) in Tanzania, using a 10mm to hunt/shoot one violates one of the most important rules of Big/Dangerous Game hunting: Use enough gun.

A corollary to that rule is: Harvest your quarry as cleanly as possible and take every measure available to minimize unnecessary pain and suffering of the animal.

While Mr. Nugent was indeed able dispatch the Buffalo with one shot (a 180 grain Corbon) it is a quite a bit on the "light" side for such a task and what he did back in 2003 certainly rates as nothing more than a "stunt".

I am just glad that he was able to secure a quick finish for the animal that put an end to any undue suffering and that nothing went wrong as it most certainly could've.

There is a reason that the .375 H&H is regarded as the accepted minimum for such a task by those who hunt "The Dark Continent" and that reason is firmly established in the history of African Big/Dangerous Game Hunting.

While I err towards extremely conservative where ethical hunting practices are concerned, I would not call it unethical (primarily because he was both gifted and even fortunate enough to make the shot effectively) but, I would call it "questionable" in that there are those who may percieve such a display as an acceptable example of a commonplace practice.

I would think that the various deer species at relatively close ranges (~50 meters as a maximum) would present a reasonable and prudent upper limit for game for the 10mm.

 

[Big Boomer]

Lest not forget the 45 Super that can easily match the 10mm loads and then the 460 Rowland that can far surpass those loads.

Not that I'd use any of the above to Hunt cape buffalo...

As far as Teddy boy, you can't possibly think that he went out out there alone with only his widdle 10mm to take down a buffalo? He probably had 2-3 other guys standing behind him with mega-bore rifles aimed at it and said "now if this thing charges..."

It's like a buddy of mines dad that was trapping and a cougar decided that he was going to be lunch, he only had his 10/22 with him the cougar managed to get within 3 feet of him after a 25 round mag dump on him. It simply growled and kept on coming. He had left his larger rifle in the truck a good 100 yards back.

He said that last "click" of the empty mag made him wet himself. Needless to say he carries a bigger bore with him now while checking traps.

 

[Northalius]

First of: We know the 10mm is no .44 Magnum; just like the .44 Magnum is no .500 Magnum; just like the .500 Magnum is no shotgun slug! And so on.

Ted goes hunting all the time with his Glock 20, so I guess he knows more than ANYone on this forum (and/or the almighty Intranetz ) how amazingly powerful it is! It's a testament as to how good the 10mm really is, even with all the doubters thinking it's "too small and weak" to use for big game hunting. We can imagine, think and theorize all we like, but Ted is not using theory, nor mere opinion... but 100% fact ACTION! And that ACTION is working for him, it seems. That's all there needs to be, to convince me I'll have a good enough woods gun against bears here in VA.

I'm getting a 10mm Glock for CCW and woods protection, and thus I chose the Glock 29. I'm going to be loading it up with DoubleTap 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth rounds when in and near the woods; DoubleTap 180 gr. JHP for town and/or city CCW.

BigBoomer: Last I remember, the factory .45 Super was loaded highest to hit around 694 ft. lbs. energy; the DoubleTap 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth round can his 750 ft. lbs. from a 4.6" barrel from a Glock 20. I'm assuming the (Corbon?) .45 Super rounds were tested from a 5" 1911.

Not sure about handloading them, if this is what you mean. I'd like to see both rounds loaded to their "hottest" just to see what they're truly capable of. I've read a man loading his (135 gr.?) 10mm to fly in at 1830 tops, and 1810 fps average. That's pretty hot, from a semi-auto cartridge, I'd say.

DoubleTaps' 135 gr. 10mm JHP hits 1600 fps, and 767 ft. lbs. energy.

Check 'em out: http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/ca...21_25&osCsid=8dbe528c19cc480dbb5ea999e06ddc5d

DT also makes what I'd call a "pistol buckshot" type round, the 230 gr. Equalizer, with two bullets (135 gr. and 95 gr.) in one round. Pretty neat, and lower velocity; one man double tapped a 250 lb. boar with this round and dropped it in its tracks after it charged at him.

 

[DougDubya]

If it's gotten to a handgun vs. a Cape Buffalo, something has gone terribly wrong somewhere.

 

[Gun Slinger]

Originally posted by Big Boomer:
As far as Teddy boy, you can't possibly think that he went out out there alone with only his widdle 10mm to take down a buffalo?

Big Boomer,

Nope, I didn't.

As questionable and marginally ethical as I find Mr. Nugent's actions to be, I don't think that Nugent is a unitelligent man. Quite the contrary, in fact. I am certain that there was probably some form of 'back up' present and such a presumption was not part of the line of thinking that I was engaging in.

My point was more along the lines that such a "stunt" was wholly unnecessary other than for the possible "entertainment value" the unusual act itself might provide. Needlessly introducing such a variable (the "light" caliber) into finishing such an awesome animal that is deserving of immediate, humane dispatch that could have resulted in complications that could have increased the unnecessary suffering of the animal served no legitimate sporting purpose. In other words, the risk was not justified by what little stood to be gained.

While I speak from quite a bit less experience than Mr. Nugent (since I have not hunted Africa as much as he has), I do speak from the experience of having actually taken two of these incredible creatures (including taking one that charged me and took seven rounds from my .375 rifle before ultimately being stopped 15 feet from where I stood) and a profound respect for the ethical requirements for hunting of all types. While Mr. Nugent's ability to successfully engineer and manipulate the conditions necessary to ensure that the shot would be effective is an impressive one, I find such measures that unnecessarily jeopardize the effective, humane dispatch of a wounded game animal taken solely for the purpose of "showing off" to be an ethically questionable act in and of itself.





The example of your friend's father is another matter entirely since he was caught unprepared and by surprise by an event that he could not foresee. I see no problem with what he did since inaction would've meant his being grievously injured or possibly killed.

When caught with your pants down, you have to pull them up.

 

[plexreticle]

I bet Ted's guides hate backing him up. Rhino at 7 yards? That's close even with a backup rifle.

 

[Fishman777]

.50 S&W wesson is not shot gun slug...

I can't argue that a 500 S&W round is not a shotgun slug. 500 S&W bullets are about the same weight in grains as most shotgun slugs, but they have superior sectional densities, and better penetration than shotgun slugs.

Here is Buffalo Bore's best 500 S&W round:

ITEM 18B 440 gr. LFN-GC
1,625 fps M.E.2579 ft.lbs

If I could hit the broad side of a barn with a Smith and Wesson 500 revolver, I would rather have a Smith and Wesson 500 revolver against a Cape Buffalo than a shotgun, but I would rather have a legitimate dangerous game rifle than either of the two previously mentioned guns.

 

[bhp9mm]

i sen that show back then he shot it with his bow then with the 10 mm i think

 

[glock21detroit]

the glock 20 to me is the best ccw/woods or any where else protection you can carry, and this is why i say this. you have an auto pistol that is more powerful then the mighty 357 mag and you have 16 at your disposel, now hunting cape buffalo, i don't know, but for it to even be considered is remarkable.

 

[Kayback]

I'm interested to know where he did that.

Locally the LEGAL minimum for Cape Buffalo hunting is a .375 H&H

KBK

 

[IdahoLT1]

the glock 20 to me is the best ccw/woods or any where else protection you can carry, and this is why i say this. you have an auto pistol that is more powerful then the mighty 357 mag and you have 16 at your disposel, now hunting cape buffalo, i don't know, but for it to even be considered is remarkable.

I'll agree that the 10mm is a good caliber to carry in most of the woods of the lower 48. Once you get into some parts of the rockies, Canada or Alaska, a .44mag, .454 Casull or .500S&W would be more suitable.

I am comfortable defending myself with my 10mm from a Cougar, Wolf and maybe a smaller black bear. Anything bigger and youd be better off shooting your buddy in the leg or throwing a small child in front of you(just joking).

 

[freakshow10mm]

Could have been stateside with imported animals. There are ranches in TX with "exotics" from Africa.

Also my understanding of the gun laws, is that .375" is the minimum, not specifically a cartridge, so the 10mm being at least .375" would be legal.

 

[Kayback]

No in South Africa the round is listed. It has to be a .375 H&H or more powerful.

KBK