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10mm vs. Mr. Brown...(BEAR)

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500s are too long and heavy, might as well have a rifle

Uhhhhh Kachok, you need to update your information there buddy. I have the LONG one that is scoped and I hunt with it but I also have the 4" barreled .500 S&W that I carry for defense. It's by far no joy at all to shoot at the range but it (at least mine is) is very accurate given the barrel length, fairly light given the power, and draws very well.
 
Uhhhhh Kachok, you need to update your information there buddy. I have the LONG one that is scoped and I hunt with it but I also have the 4" barreled .500 S&W that I carry for defense. It's by far no joy at all to shoot at the range but it (at least mine is) is very accurate given the barrel length, fairly light given the power, and draws very well.
If you want to call 56 oz "light" go right ahead, not me though, for contrast sake I can get a 44 Magnum as light as 28 oz, HALF THE WEIGHT. I think the 500s are just too darn heavy, but then again I am small framed and 5'6" it can be relative to the user.
 
So are you all saying that it does not matter...10mm glock, S&W .500...might as well have a .22 rimfire or .38 snubnose, bear wins regardless of caliber & skill-level?

Every year in Anchorage at the "fur rondy" the state auctions off bear pelts taken in "defense of life and property". I don't know what an average year is, but in 2009 there were 117 pelts for sale. That's 117 bears killed in defense of life and property. Doubtless, many of those bears were nuisance kills rather than self-defense kills, but that's a lot of bears in a state with a small population.

In the same vein, there may be anywhere from 5 to 10 people mauled per year, with perhaps 2 or 3 deaths. In some years, nobody at all dies.

With those rough numbers, it's safe to say that being armed puts you well ahead of the odds. Yet, that's deceptive because most of those bears are killed by hunters with rifles. Hunters are the ones out there at the hungry time of year packing raw meat around, hanging meat near their camp, etc. When a hunter has to shoot a bear, he's got some pretty heavy artillery at his disposal and he's probably got a friend or two also shooting. People don't hunt alone up here.

Still, the way I see it, you'd better plan on getting one shot at best. And you'd better plan on that shot being less than perfect. If you have a caliber heavy enough to go really deep you might hit spine or even the pelvis at the rear. Anything that knocks the bear down or even slows him up increases your odds of getting a second or third shot.

If you shoot a bear right in the nose with even a 9mm, he's probably going down right there. There's nothing but some thin bones between the nasal cavity and the brain, but making that shot is just... unlikely.

Brown/Grizzlies are ambush predators. They are not Hollywood bears who stand up and roar, then waddle at you while you gun them down. 90% or more of these events happen when you either walk up on a bear in brush and he silently charges from close range or he silently stalks in and rushes you, usually from the rear. They don't start the rush until they are very close and a bear can run at 35 miles per hour. There's not much time.
 
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thanks for answering all the questions I had. Can I conclude the moral of this thread is carry the biggest possible firearm you can when in bear country? Thats what I'm taking from it. Mostly thanks to all the BTDT guys for talking me outta buying a glock
 
Statistics prove otherwise.
Please share (in another thread if that's better). Kinda depends on what I meant by "close range", doesn't it.

Moshe+-+Craig+Indy+Push+Pistol+Chest.jpg

I hardly ever miss from this range. ;)
Can I conclude the moral of this thread is carry the biggest possible firearm you can when in bear country?
The standard rule for SD is to "carry the most powerful firearm that you shoot well." Would seem to apply to SD from bears as well.
 
Neither does the bear!!:D:D

The SD rules DO NOT apply to bear defense since it is penetration, penetration, penetration that matters once you have shot placement. Not all guns are equal when looking at large, heavy boned, heavy muscled critters that run over 35 mph and have the power to kill with one swat of their paws.

If you can't handle .44 magnum or larger in handguns, carry pepper spray and a large caliber rifle and never go alone in bear country anywhere.
 
It's been said "I'm so close I CAN'T miss" should instead read "I'm so close I BETTER NOT!" ;)
"carry the most powerful firearm that you shoot well."
The SD rules DO NOT apply to bear defense
I did not exclude rifles in my SD rule. But I think we agree that you should not carry something (whether rifle or handgun) that, though powerful, you can't hit with.

That would be a very good argument for pepper spray; and not the only good one, either. :D
 
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Guy killed a charging griz in Denali a while back with a 1911 in .45ACP. The report was posted on this board, I think, or maybe one of the other forums. I mean, if a .45 saved a man, why couldn't a 10? It's last ditch to the OP's shotgun, after all.

I remember reading that story. It was something like 11-13 rounds of .45 ACP.
 
If you want to call 56 oz "light" go right ahead, not me though, for contrast sake I can get a 44 Magnum as light as 28 oz, HALF THE WEIGHT. I think the 500s are just too darn heavy, but then again I am small framed and 5'6" it can be relative to the user.

OOPS, I forgot you were a smaller fella there Kachok. I guess I sometimes forget my size at times. But I did note "fairly light given their power" But you are dead on correct in the fact that it's not a handgun for the smaller framed individuals. Hell even my gorilla hands and arms buck with the 4". Now my long one isn't really THAT bad at all. But it too will say hello to your for-head if not given the proper respect. Just ask me how I know that :( .

With those rough numbers, it's safe to say that being armed puts you well ahead of the odds. Yet, that's deceptive because most of those bears are killed by hunters with rifles. Hunters are the ones out there at the hungry time of year packing raw meat around, hanging meat near their camp, etc. When a hunter has to shoot a bear, he's got some pretty heavy artillery at his disposal and he's probably got a friend or two also shooting. People don't hunt alone up here.

To add a smidge to that, Brown Bears are actually starting to learn that gunfire will, a lot of times, equate to downed game. In other words, they hear gun fire and they say to themselves "ohhhhh easy pickins :D " So when in Bear territory, after you have shot something, be on VERY high alert as it could very well draw in a bruin.
 
"Fairly light given their power" Agreed, they are a touch lighter then a 155mm Howitzer :D Recoil is about the same though LOL. The 500 is a real thumper, I want one, but a lever gun not a wheel gun, my shouder can take it without a doubt, but my wrist probably could not.
 
Everyone wants a .500 S&W for bear defense, but many of those same folks turn their nose at the .444 which is much more powerful than the .500. Go figure. Even with a .500 S&W or a .444 or a 45-70 with stout loads, a lot of luck goes with rifle or handgun defense.
 
The 500 S&W runs neck and neck with the hot 444 Marlin factory loads. Difference is it does it out of a pistol barrel as opposed to the carbine barrel on the 444, put them both in a lever gun and the 500 has the edge, more energy, and more wounding potential thanks to the notably larger caliber. (actual .429" vs .500")
 
Most folks when they refer to the .500 S&W are talking handguns, not lever rifles. Of course, a .500 in lever rifle will of course have more to offer than a .444. In handguns, the .444 tops it by quite a bit and is much easier for the average person to shoot.
 
Speaking of statistics...

Interesting study on guns vs. grizzlies:
handguns slightly outperformed long guns, resulting in a positive outcome (meaning the gun stopped the bear’s aggression) 84 percent of the time versus 76 percent.

Thanks to the pointer from this thread.

I'm wondering how the guys who got eaten completed the survey? :confused:
 
The 500 S&W runs neck and neck with the hot 444 Marlin factory loads. Difference is it does it out of a pistol barrel as opposed to the carbine barrel on the 444, put them both in a lever gun and the 500 has the edge, more energy, and more wounding potential thanks to the notably larger caliber. (actual .429" vs .500")

I'm unaware of any .500 S&W loads that meet or exceed any load from a .444 Marlin. It is very likely that no lever action will be made for the .500S&W due to it's high opperating pressure. With the exception of the one company who's name escapes at the moment and carries a hefty price tag.

http://www.hornady.com/store/444-Marlin-265-gr-interlock-FP-Superformance/

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=156

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=157

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=97

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=98
 
A few years ago a guide friend of mine had a grizzly get on one of his hunters when he stumbled on to the bear on a kill.

The hunter may have hit the bear with his 7 Rem mag point blank, but who knows.

David shot the bear in the side several times point blank with a 44 Mag not being able to shoot him in the brain with the hunter in his mouth.

The bear got off the man and left. After the man was looked after the outfitter and guides trailed the bear for several miles and never found him.

If you don't have the ability to shoot the bear in the brain in the situation you are given it is not going to be pretty I don't think.
 
REASONABLY accurate doesn't even come close to cutting it there buddy...Before talking about something that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about as if you have first hand knowledge, take advise from those of us that DO have it. I now carry a .500 S&W whenever I am in big bear territory
Not sure I caught your sage advice there, buddy. What is it I have absolutely no clue about, again? :D:rolleyes:
 
I'm unaware of any .500 S&W loads that meet or exceed any load from a .444 Marlin. It is very likely that no lever action will be made for the .500S&W due to it's high opperating pressure. With the exception of the one company who's name escapes at the moment and carries a hefty price tag.

http://www.hornady.com/store/444-Marlin-265-gr-interlock-FP-Superformance/

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=156

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=157

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=97

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=98
They already make 500 S&W lever rifles, check out the M89 that bighorn makes. No doubt the 444 will handle anything you would ever want a lever gun for, but to be honest big bores are all an overkill, just a somewhat useful overkill. 444, 454, 45-70, 500 S&W it makes little difference, they are all very capable of taking down anything that walks North America with proper bullet selection and shot placement.
 
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Originally Posted by H&Hhunter View Post
Statistics prove otherwise.

So are you all saying that it does not matter...10mm glock, S&W .500...might as well have a .22 rimfire or .38 snubnose, bear wins regardless of caliber & skill-level?

Nope I was commenting on the fact that shooting a handgun accurately enough to be able to brain shoot a running bear is not in the least bit instinctive it takes training and continuous practice to stay proficient with a handgun. Just take look at how many rounds are fired vs bullets on target in your average LEO involved shooting.
 
Kinda depends on what I meant by "close range", doesn't it.



I hardly ever miss from this range.

With all due respect practicing gun from the front in Krav has NOTHING to do with a bear attack. Have you ever seen how fast a motivated brown bear moves?
 
Everyone wants a .500 S&W for bear defense, but many of those same folks turn their nose at the .444 which is much more powerful than the .500. Go figure. Even with a .500 S&W or a .444 or a 45-70 with stout loads, a lot of luck goes with rifle or handgun defense.

I am sure as tootin NOT one of them snobby folks. I have had a .444 Marlin in my rack for a darn good many years. Couldn't tell you how many critters I have dropped with her. But it's a slight bit unfair to make a comparison between a handgun and a rifle there aint it? Now, I'd be willing to do some testing against the 2 if I can use my newish 10 1/2" (damn near a carbine :D ) .500 S&W and have the test medium set at say......50 yards? I'd have to bet ya that the .500 will do a bit better at "splattering" whatever it hits :D .
 
Dear Freedom Fighter,

That would be an interesting experiment for sure. The average .444 modern load is going to top the highest .500 s&w loads. It is interesting that the top loads do approach 3000 ft-pds of muzzle energy which is quite impressive from a handgun.

http://www.ballistics101.com/500_sw.php

If we take the highest hand loads some folks have accomplished, the .444 can approach 3700 to 4000 ft-pds of muzzle energy with up to 405 gr bullets. All in all, they are comparable when looking at the .500's top loads and the average .444 cartridges. That wasn't really the point I was trying to make.

Instead, I was simply showing what I believe to be a bit hypocritical denigration of the .444 compared to the worship of the .500 as a bear stopper. That was the issue I was bringing up. In addition, how many folks can handle a .500 vs those being able to shoot a rifle in .444? In addition, taking a 405 gr bullet in the .444, it will have a higher sectional density than the .500. How these issues play out in a direct experiment in my mind is a bit up in the air.

If you ever do a direct head to head comparison, please do post it for all of us to see.

Take care,

Alaska444
 
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