13.7" vs 12.5" vs 11.5"

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Everyone has an opinion on barrel lengths. But everyone is also trying to superimpose on one another about barrel lengths too. Too funny.

I'm doing a P&W because I don't want to do the paperwork asking if I can cross state lines with my own SBR. I can only carry one rifle at a time, so again why should I be doing more when I can do a P&W to get the shortest possible without worrying about what I can and can't have on a stupid brace pistol crap?

Go measure a 16 barrel no P&W with it's comp installed already next to a P&W to 16" and tell me what lengths you're getting. THAT'S WHY it's preferred by some.
 
You asked, so I did.

I’ve done P&W’s to make non-SBR shorties, I’ve done SBR’s 7-14.5”. P&W doesn’t really cut it, for me.

If you just wanted someone to butter your butt because you have what you want figured out, then say that. But you asked for experiences, I shared mine. If Pay your stamp, send your 5320.20’s, and live happy.


Okay, so first off you gave your input and before I even got a chance to respond to you in any form you took an attitude with me in a following post...My apologies for not addressing you sooner, your highness.

After reading what you said in both post....you must not have read my initial post at all. I have a tax stamp paid for already, and I know about the 5320.20 forms...I am not looking to file the form until I settle into a final location with my job. I know without filing that form an SBR cannot cross state lines in NFA configuration. I asked for experiences with the 13.7"in length/PW setups because they meet 16" for crossing state lines.

You made your point, I appreciate your input but I asked about going with a longer barrel, I didn't ask about going shorter than 12.5" because I already have an 11.5"...........….you made your point.

Don't reply to this thread if you won't even read the two sentences of my thread before you reply and only if you are respectful to others.
 
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Everyone has an opinion on barrel lengths. But everyone is also trying to superimpose on one another about barrel lengths too. Too funny.

I'm doing a P&W because I don't want to do the paperwork asking if I can cross state lines with my own SBR. I can only carry one rifle at a time, so again why should I be doing more when I can do a P&W to get the shortest possible without worrying about what I can and can't have on a stupid brace pistol crap?

Go measure a 16 barrel no P&W with it's comp installed already next to a P&W to 16" and tell me what lengths you're getting. THAT'S WHY it's preferred by some.


Math is hard for some people, and reading a tape measure is even harder.
 
Myself, I'm not in the market for anything shorter than 14.7", which is M4 length.
With an A2 FH it's just over 16", I'm not paying $200 for that or using a stupid brace.


I started with a 16" PSA govt profile barrel then swapped that out for a Faxon 16" gunner profile and that made a noticeable difference to me in the way it handled and balanced.
The FN 14.7" lightweight profile felt like the winning ticket to me so I sold off the 16" and probably won't buy another.
To me, if going 16", may as well go 18"
FN 14.7" on the left, Faxon 16" on the right. 13.5" handguards on both.
View attachment 1112663

I would have to have a suppressor first before I did an SBR in the 12.5" range to begin with

I should have done a can before I did my SBR looking back...but such is life. I do appreciate everyone's input and I had a 14.5" before. I did hear about some suppressors mounting to an A2 birdcage but again the mounting point is further away from the shooter than a keymo 13.7" or similar in a 13.7" if you get the threads for the mounting system as far back as possible it reduces overall length while maintaining legal length of 16".
 
Maybe, maybe not. While I'm not familiar with everybody's QD systems I know most of the ones that have longer muzzle devices like Key-Mo and Sico ASR the locking mechanism hangs out the back of the can.
With Griffin's taperlock the rear end of the can is actually behind the muzzle this is a 12" handguard and a 12.5" barrel.View attachment 1112241
View attachment 1112242


By the back do you mean the end with threads or the end facing downrange?

I figured since threads are internal to the can and the device restart inside the can, it is shorter. The threads for the keymo or other device are closer to the shooter, thus bring the point where the suppressor mounts to the gun closer to the shooter?

I'll look into the tapermount and some sort of device for it. I'll look at that list later to see if I can find something on it. The further back it comes towards me the shorter it's OAL will be.
 
View attachment 1112620
Me on left, with nonstandard 11.5" barreled upper on M4 somewhere, 2006.


I love my 11.5" better dwell time than a 10.3-5" for just an inch. Not sure what the numbers say but I'd bet the jump from 10.5"/11.5" to 13.7-9" is greater than just jumping to 12.5"


Thanks for the service brother!!!
 
By the back do you mean the end with threads or the end facing downrange?
Back meaning the rear the part that goes over the muzzle device.
I figured since threads are internal to the can and the device restart inside the can, it is shorter.
You figured wrong on the keymo the threads on the device are behind to the rear external to the can.
DA428-29-KeyMo.jpg
The Griffin plan A does do that and puts the threads of the muzzle device inside the can.
IMG_4039__00675.jpg
A 13.7" with Keymo mount and muzzle device would be about the same if not longer OAL as a 14.5" with a Griffin Plan A and a Griffin flash comp.
The flash comp is just long enough to P&W a 14.5 to 16"
 
@JayZee - yes, I read the thread. What you’re not getting out of this, for some reason is the advice to either keep sending your 5320.20’s, because they’re not actually a burden, or just build a 16” rifle. You’re simply not buying enough length reduction to paint yourself into a corner with uber-specific kit to make a 13.7” barrel with a reflex can and brake mount, and still end up with a 20-21” equivalent length, while a 16” with a broader market of 6-7” ends up 22-23”… reflex chambers add a lot of length to suppressors - it’s not a 1:1 reduction in front of the muzzle for the length reflexed behind it. Again, all of this compared to a conventional can on a 10.5” barrel with an equivalent length of 16-17” total.

Nobody really wants a 16” rifle, so the better option, unless prohibited by your destinations, is to simply send your 5320.20’s and keep using your current SBR as is. But reflexing over a fake SBR to save 2” and being stuck with only a couple of specific options… eh… it’s trying way too hard… especially when you’re still paying for a stamp for a can which is less than ideal, just to pull it all off…

But it IS your money… some guys DO put straight pipes on their 6 bangers…
 
However I like the idea of having the shortest "not an SBR" rifle possible I can take between the states and still run a can on it when I commit to having one.

Sounds like a bullpup with a 16” barrel.

I have also made cans that telescope back over the barrel to add volume without also adding length. Like this one that almost doubles the volume without doubling the length it sticks out past the end of the barrel.

B8DAEF26-30C0-4BB0-892B-7A96DDC38B8A.jpeg

226FDEC2-67FA-44DD-875F-B870E8FF3F08.jpeg
 
Sounds like a bullpup with a 16” barrel.

I have also made cans that telescope back over the barrel to add volume without also adding length. Like this one that almost doubles the volume without doubling the length it sticks out past the end of the barrel.

View attachment 1112756

View attachment 1112757

A bullpup and/or telescoping can are both good ideas.

Neither option will be particularly cheap though. Even the KelTec bullpups are north of 1k and have less than stellar reviews.
 
People have their individual likes and dislikes and in many cases I don't listen to people trying to talk "their sense" into me............
varminterror has tons of real world experience sometimes he delivers it where he appears rough around the edges but he still knows what he is doing. best thing is just take the flak and use his info
 
Everyone has an opinion on barrel lengths. But everyone is also trying to superimpose on one another about barrel lengths too. Too funny.

I'm doing a P&W because I don't want to do the paperwork asking if I can cross state lines with my own SBR. I can only carry one rifle at a time, so again why should I be doing more when I can do a P&W to get the shortest possible without worrying about what I can and can't have on a stupid brace pistol crap?

Go measure a 16 barrel no P&W with it's comp installed already next to a P&W to 16" and tell me what lengths you're getting. THAT'S WHY it's preferred by some.[/QUOTE
have no use for a pistol firing a rifle bullet but the obsession with these things is really skirting the laws and daring the ATF to do something. if a guy goes berserk and shoots a lot of people with one the ATF will do something like with bump stocks. the ATF is thinking about doing something with the pistol brace.
 
varminterror has tons of real world experience sometimes he delivers it where he appears rough around the edges but he still knows what he is doing
Except the person you responded to was not wrong in his assessment either.

I still know what I am doing as well and also has real world experiences, and already responded in kind. People trying to talk "their sense" into others is nothing new to the internet and gun boards in particular. Everyone thinks they know what's best for the other, if only we could learn to live with what others like that we do not.

You want to keep doing Form 1's for numerous SBR's that you can only hold one at a time and asking permission to cross state lines with them? Knock yourself out. Myself however and others, sometimes we just want a smallest legally possible without asking permission to cross state lines with and not be bothered by it. Nothing wrong with wanting it done that either and is a benign thing to argue over really.
 
have no use for a pistol firing a rifle bullet but the obsession with these things is really skirting the laws and daring the ATF to do something. if a guy goes berserk and shoots a lot of people with one the ATF will do something like with bump stocks. the ATF is thinking about doing something with the pistol brace.
You discombobulated that by mixing your reply in with my reply, you may want to fix that if you want yourself to be heard.

My post you quoted had nothing to do with AR15 pistols, braces, or bumpstocks. Who exactly are you referring to here because it's not me?
 
varminterror has tons of real world experience sometimes he delivers it where he appears rough around the edges but he still knows what he is doing. best thing is just take the flak and use his info
Rough around the edges is a gentile euphemism.......... Everyone has their biases, even so called experts, doesn't always make them right. He strikes me as one of those people who come across as the "if it isn't practical in my mind then it's a waste of time and money" types who makes sure everyone knows this because he's "better" than the rest of us. The way he demeaned those who think differently than him speaks volumes. I let people do what they want to do as long as its legal and safe, that's their choice not anyone else's.
 
Maybe more productive - let’s talk about the objectives, and the specific components @JayZee is considering for his build, then objective comparison gets more fruitful.

Maybe this isn’t his particular objective - despite implying such in his first post - but most guys build P&W’s to reduce length and weight. JayZee mentioned both, and rearward balance as well.

So what particular compensator mount, QD can cap, and can is JayZee considering?

Here’s why this matters: Direct thread with a 6” can like a SiCo Omega on a 16” barrel is equivalent to a barrel 21.5” long. Typically, QD mounts on compatible compensators place the coarse threads ahead of the barrel shoulder, and typically QD endcaps add 1/4-1/2’ to the can. For the SilencerCo kit I have at hand, the brake mount and QD end cap adds exactly 5.0 ounces over the direct thread flat cap, and almost exactly 1” of overall length when installed. A 16” with the flat cap will end at equivalent of 21.5”. A 13.7” with the brake mount and QD end cape set up ends up at 20.1” equivalent. 1.4” shorter, giving up 2.3” of barrel. 2.3” of .720” barrel with .224” bore (underweight, slightly) will weigh 3.8oz, trading for 5.0 extra ounces of comp and QD cap - which in fairness, is a little underweight in this case, since the ASR brake is only 2.5”, and wouldn’t actually make it to 16.0” if P&W, so it would be a bit more than +5.0oz if it were the 2.9” it needs to be, instead of 2.5”. So in trying to cut weight and length, and move weight rearward, we actually GAIN muzzle weight choosing this option, and only reduce 1.4”, and balance moves TOWARD the muzzle, not toward the hands.

So @JayZee needs to have a QD mount comp which has threads equal to or reflexed behind the shoulder of the barrel, and needs a can which accepts the QD threads up inside itself instead of having a LONG QD mount, otherwise, AND the comp and end cap needs to weigh less than 3.8oz, otherwise it pushes the balance forward and increases the weight of the rifle, AND the can has to be less than 5.4” in front of the muzzle, just to be only 1.4” shorter than a standard 16” with a can. Which doesn’t achieve two of the three objectives - and which gives up something around 80-100fps for that 1.4” savings. I’ve built a LOT of AR’s, literally hundreds of uppers, and I’ve not seen this particular combination.

(It will also only ever take that ONE suppressor mount type - at least without a grinder and welder involved to change the comp).

All the while, he has a perfectly good rifle set up that he loves, right now. A QD can on a P&W upper sounds sexy, I guess, but a double stamp suppressed 11.5” SBR sounds a lot sexier to me - and it’s actually significantly shorter and lighter.

I don’t know this answer - is there anywhere in the US which allows possession of a suppressor but not an SBR? I also don’t know - how many places in the US allow AR’s but don’t allow SBR’s? Maybe he’s traveling somewhere specific like this?
 
I’ve built a LOT of AR’s, literally hundreds of uppers, and I’ve not seen this particular combination.
Well you have seen it and apparently scrolled right past it. The Griffin Plan A adapter is .5 oz heavier and shortens the OAL .25" than a direct thread adapter and their Hammer Comp device is 2.5 oz. Now it doesn't work on a 13.7 but is perfect for a 14.5 so actual weight savings is probably nil but it's certainly shorter and the balance is further back.
And sure he can't use a different system but why would he want to.
Also nothing says he can't buy a second muzzle device for his SBR I would suggest the Griffin linear taper mount.
 
I'm pretty sure OP is still going to do it his way no matter how times we say how many millions and gazillions of fallacy appeals to an 'authority" says about it. May as well accept that and leave things be instead of wasting more time about what the OP should be doing according to who's giving them their decree about it.

I'm picking up my own 13.9 P&W this coming Thursday, I can't wait long enough. Even more to clutch the pearls with, an Eotech is going to be it's primary sight Third shocker? Going to have a BUIS set too. Fourth flabbergasting? A WML. Oh me oh my oh noes, the 1st world problems to choose what I want based on my experiences instead of how another wants that absolutely would turn my rifle into a wasted effort if gone their way, is very interesting to say in the nicest way put.
 
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So which is it? Is it dumb or only dumb when you do the math wrong?

I’ve described here thoroughly why I find P&W wanting.

In this case, we’re still looking for vaporware to make a shorter, lighter, more rearward balanced rifle.

Ever since the ban ended and muzzle devices became fair game again, I’ve had dozens of customers ask for the same thing: “I want an SBR without the hassle.” Ok, sure, why do you want an SBR? What about it is attractive for you? “Shorter and more handy, less muzzle weight, lighter, more maneuverable.” So this calculus is common for me - it comes up multiple times per year, for a long time. Cans that swallow long P&W brakes still typically have the same length in front of the device as a direct thread can, so we’re still stacking ~6” ahead of 16”. I’ve never seen anything that accomplished these three goals of less weight, better resulting balance between hands, and actually shorter format… It’s always someone standing up that carrying an extra quarter pound with increased muzzle weight and losing ~80-100fps really has to be worth less than an inch and a half to them…
 
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