150 or 168 grn COPPER for 308?

[D.B. Cooper]

So, a hunting partner is running a short-barreled (I think it's 16") Ruger scout rifle in 308. He thinks he has a loose picatinny rail or rings or a faulty scope. I'm going to take it, remove everything, reinstall everything with loctite, etc. etc. Then I'm going to go shoot it.

This is a chance for me to move him up to Barnes TSX hunting ammo. They sell a 150 and a 168 grn projectile. (I'm talking the VOR-TX commercially loaded ammo; he doesn't handload, and I'm not set up for 308.) Of those two, which are going to perform best from that short Ruger Scout barrel?

Those projectiles will likely be a tad longer than their cup and core counterparts of the same weight, and I don't know the twist rate in his barrel. Also, I'm thinking the shorter barrel will give less spin/stability than a longer barrel anyway.

My plan is to use this ammo to do a box test and then shoot for group size with his rifle. My other plan is to just buy some Federal God Medal Match in 168 grn Match King and use that, because I know that will work.

 

[Larry in wyoming]

According to the spec sheet it's a 10 twist so that's good for the longer bullets. I'd go 150gr for the higher velocity to make those copper bullets expand better.

 

[Buzznrose]

My 16” .308 generally likes 150’s over 168’s but I’d try both and see.

 

[adcoch1]

In the copper I'd go 150, and like previously stated, a 1 in 10" twist should be fine for stability.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

My 16” .308 generally likes 150’s over 168’s but I’d try both and see.

If it were my rifle, sure. But I'm not p to paying $58/box to experiment with someone else's rifle. Then again, if it were my rifle, it would have a 24" barrel.

 

[LoonWulf]

150s, velocity is your friend and that 16" is already giving up about 200fps.....is be inclined to drop to the 130s if they are available.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

...be inclined to drop to the 130s if they are available.

They're not. Which is just as well; they're a third more expensive.

 

[LoonWulf]

They're not. Which is just as well; they're a third more expensive.

Yikes!
yeah maybe just the 150s then....

 

[horsemen61]

They're not. Which is just as well; they're a third more expensive.

I’d start loading for this rifle then and use the 130’s but if that’s truly not an option I’d go 150’s I assume since your talking about a mono bullet this is for hunting if the 150’s shot even ok I’d use them because you need speed to make this style of bullet work any game isn’t going to notice a 1/4” of difference in group size say If the 168’s did shoot a smidge better in reasonable conditions and yardage

 

[Buzznrose]

So, a hunting partner is running a short-barreled (I think it's 16") Ruger scout rifle in 308. He thinks he has a loose picatinny rail or rings or a faulty scope. I'm going to take it, remove everything, reinstall everything with loctite, etc. etc. Then I'm going to go shoot it.

This is a chance for me to move him up to Barnes TSX hunting ammo. They sell a 150 and a 168 grn projectile. (I'm talking the VOR-TX commercially loaded ammo; he doesn't handload, and I'm not set up for 308.) Of those two, which are going to perform best from that short Ruger Scout barrel?

Those projectiles will likely be a tad longer than their cup and core counterparts of the same weight, and I don't know the twist rate in his barrel. Also, I'm thinking the shorter barrel will give less spin/stability than a longer barrel anyway.

My plan is to use this ammo to do a box test and then shoot for group size with his rifle. My other plan is to just buy some Federal God Medal Match in 168 grn Match King and use that, because I know that will work.

If it were my rifle, sure. But I'm not p to paying $58/box to experiment with someone else's rifle. Then again, if it were my rifle, it would have a 24" barrel.

All ammo should ‘work’ but what accuracy level is the goal? I like the Ruger rifles but the Scout isn’t really a sub MOA that I know. Is this a hunting rifle?

Either weight should get you decent results.

 

[dh1633pm]

Don’t use copper in my GSR. It seems to prefer 150’s. Of which I use jacketed soft points. I have the 18 inch barrel. More than accurate enough. With the composite stock. It is an excellent 308 hunting rifle.

 

[Ks5shooter]

150 get my vote.

 

[EIB0879]

I shoot Barnes Vortex ammo 168 gr TTXS out of my PA-10 w a 18" bbl and they are accurate but I have noticed with other loads it prefers 1 50 gr.. Haven't tried the TTSX on game yet though.

 

[jmr40]

Conventional wisdom says Barnes copper bullets need 2000 fps at impact in order to expand. Much slower and you get very little expansion. For that reason, most people including myself, have usually suggested lighter than normal in order to get more speed.

But I've seen some information and test results that makes me think that we may need to revise how we think about copper. For one thing, while a 130 gr bullet may start at 3000+ fps from a 308 it will also slow down faster. In many cases a heavier bullet may retain 2000 fps farther down range even though it starts slower.

I've also seen where some guys have done some expansion testing. The general rule of needing around 2000 fps at impact seems to be accurate with 130 and 150 gr 30 caliber copper bullets. But some guys are reporting adequate expansion from heavier 168 and 180 gr bullets at impact speeds lower than 2000 fps. With that in mind a 168 gr bullet in a 308 may not be a bad choice after all. Especially if it is the more accurate bullet.

On the other hand. Copper almost always penetrates better. There is probably nothing in North America that a 150 gr solid copper bullet won't penetrate enough to reach the vitals.

 

[Buzznrose]

Lot of back and forth but I’m still curious what the rifle’s purpose is to the owner. IIRC, DB lives in the Interior of Alaska, so if a hunting rifle for that local, generally speaking, moose, caribou, and black bear, with inland grizzly bears for an added bonus.

Few ethical shots taken beyond 300 yards except maybe caribou up north of them on the tundra flats. 16” scout rifle with either 150’s or 168’d will do the job fine if properly sighted and shots placed well, but I’d probably favor 168’s if they work okay in the gun.

If hunting deer in CONUS, then 150’s probably best option.

Just my $0.02

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Lot of back and forth but I’m still curious what the rifle’s purpose is to the owner. IIRC, DB lives in the Interior of Alaska, so if a hunting rifle for that local, generally speaking, moose, caribou, and black bear, with inland grizzly bears for an added bonus.

My hunt partner uses it as general, do-all rifle. When we hunt together, it's caribou on tundra. A Scout rifle isn't the best option, but he likes the rifle, and I think he generally restricts his shots less than 200 yards, so it works.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Conventional wisdom says Barnes copper bullets need 2000 fps at impact in order to expand. Much slower and you get very little expansion. For that reason, most people including myself, have usually suggested lighter than normal in order to get more speed.

It's more than conventional wisdom. I contacted Barnes and asked them directly what's their minimum impact velocity, and 2000 fps was their answer.

...while a 130 gr bullet may start at 3000+ fps from a 308 it will also slow down faster. In many cases a heavier bullet may retain 2000 fps farther down range even though it starts slower.

Interesting. I just shot my 243, 85 grn TSX hunting bullets in an F-Class 600 yard competition where we used ShotMarker electronic scoring that showed my average velocity at 600 yrds to be just over 1500 fps (far too slow for hunting) starting from a 3185 fps MV. (so about half of MV downrange). But I don't have any data from a lighter bullet with which to compare it.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I shoot Barnes Vortex ammo 168 gr TTXS out of my PA-10 w a 18" bbl and they are accurate but I have noticed with other loads it prefers 1 50 gr.. Haven't tried the TTSX on game yet though.

It WORKS! Turns lung tissue into raspberry jelly. I've shot 3 of my 4 caribou with TSX (the non-tipped version) and all of them were DRT. Like not another step. All of them were through and through shots with one busting through a shoulder blade scapula.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

...but what accuracy level is the goal?...

I have two goals. Primary: enough accuracy to prove that the base, mounts, and rings are solid, dependable, and properly installed and that the scope is functioning properly. (Hence, my other option is the competition target ammo with the Sierra match King bullet.)

Secondary goal: If I can do all of the above with the Barnes ammo (which is pretty accurate in my gun, but my gun is a different animal entirely), then I can hand him the rifle with the remaining ammo from the box and sort of bump him up to quality of ammo that is far above the Remington Core Lokt he usually uses.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I have two goals. Primary: enough accuracy to prove that the base, mounts, and rings are solid, dependable, and properly installed and that the scope is functioning properly. (Hence, my other option is the competition target ammo with the Sierra match King bullet.)

Secondary goal: If I can do all of the above with the Barnes ammo (which is pretty accurate in my gun, but my gun is a different animal entirely), then I can hand him the rifle with the remaining ammo from the box and sort of bump him up to quality of ammo that is far above the Remington Core Lokt he usually uses.

I hope he's not reading this; he may not like being bumped up to a cartridge that is a 40% jump in price.

 

[EIB0879]

It WORKS! Turns lung tissue into raspberry jelly. I've shot 3 of my 4 caribou with TSX (the non-tipped version) and all of them were DRT. Like not another step. All of them were through and through shots with one busting through a shoulder blade scapula.

I used the 168 gr TSX loaded in the 30-06 Rem. Hog Hammer ammunition on a doe several years ago and while the expansion wasn't great the deer didn't travel far. The shot was less than twenty yards so maybe that had something to do with the lack of expansion.

 

[Gun-Reck]

Run 168 gr. TSX in a 24" .30-06.

Anything less, would opt for the 150 gr.

Velocity makes copper bullets effective.

 

[Gun-Reck]

I used the 168 gr TSX loaded in the 30-06 Rem. Hog Hammer ammunition on a doe several years ago and while the expansion wasn't great the deer didn't travel far. The shot was less than twenty yards so maybe that had something to do with the lack of expansion.

If the game is not big and heavy, then they need to be run through bone.

Favor the high, double shoulder.

 

[Robert]

If the game is not big and heavy, then they need to be run through bone.

Favor the high, double shoulder.

No they don't. The four deer I've shot with TSX or similar all copper bullets, save one, was DRT. And she went in a tight circle, went down, tried to get up but couldn't. No more than 5 feet from where she was originally standing.

All shots were either heart/lung. Well one I missed the heart on a bad wind read at 325y and was only a double lung hit. No need to bust shoulders, aim for the boiler room and they perform just fine.

All were 150gr out of a 308 Winchester M70.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

No they don't. The four deer I've shot with TSX or similar all copper bullets, save one, was DRT. And she went in a tight circle, went down, tried to get up but couldn't. No more than 5 feet from where she was originally standing.

All shots were either heart/lung. Well one I missed the heart on a bad wind read at 325y and was only a double lung hit. No need to bust shoulders, aim for the boiler room and they perform just fine.

All were 150gr out of a 308 Winchester M70.

Same here. The one shoulder blade I shattered was a pure accident on my part. (And I was mad as heck because I wanted to keep it for a moose call.)