1911 cocked-and-locked, anyone ever forgets the safety?

[Kano383]

Not only on 1911s... I would like to know: anyone ever forgets to disengage the safety when drawing a gun with a 1911-type frame mounted safety? I'm not talking about those clumsy backward-working, stiff-as-hell, slide mounted contraptions found on several guns, but of proper safeties, ergonomically designed.

Does anyone know about incidents where a LEO or other professional got killed because of the safety on a SA cocked-and-locked gun (getting "confused" by the complexity of that lever, or forgetting about it, or fumbling helplessly, or whatever)?

I'm asking because I often read statements to the effect that a safety on a pistol "may confuse the shooter". Since I can't remember having ever been confused by the safety on my rifle, or my 1911, even under stress, I always wondered about that argument.

 

[DeepSouth]

If anything I have the opposite problem, I tend to swipe the safety off just from habit without really even realizing I did it.
Anyone who gets confused by a 1911 safety, or forgets to disengage it has spent very, very little time with a 1911.

The only place I've ever heard of problems is on the internet, and then it's a potential problem. Let's face it, if you can't handle a 1911 safety, you really don't need to be carrying a 1911 for more than one reason.

 

[AZAndy]

When introducing a newcomer to a 1911, I have seen the thumb safety forgotten, which tells me I didn't do a good job of explaining things. Anyone who forgets the safety just hasn't shot it much. The cure for that happens pretty fast.

The "high ride" thumb surely helps in familiarization, though some find it uncomfortable.

Oh hey-- welcome to our cozy den, Kano!

 

[bc38]

no i have never forgot the safety on any gun that i used no matter what the configuration. ( and i use many) most all the talk about confused/ complexity is B.S. to convince you to buy another gun, or their choice for handgun is the BEST, you fool for not seeing it with out me telling you.

 

[Ed Ames]

It is pretty common if people don't practice as they should (both correctly and sufficiently). I can't cite any examples of law enforcement having issues, but you see it at the range fairly often and you can only assume it would be even more likely in a high stress situation.

 

[Chuck R.]

I haven't in a long, long time, not since the 1st couple times I shot a 1911, but I've trained and competed with 1911s for years.

My safety is swiped off on count 2 of my draw stroke as the pistol clears the holster. As part of my "thumbs forward" grip, my shooting hand thumb rides on top of the disengaged safety. so it's become impossible to miss/forget, just due to my grip. As a matter of fact, the 1911 is the only pistol I'll carry cocked and locked. I haven't found another pistol yet that puts the safety right where I need it because of my grip.

I have seen new shooters forget to disengage (quite a few actually) when on a clock, especially those that haven't trained in a proper draw.

Chuck

 

[Dog Soldier]

In a confrontation your pulse rate red lines. Your peripheral vision is lost and tunnel vision on the adversary takes control. Real time locks up your conscious mind. Under these conditions can a even a practised shooter forget the safety? Yes and Yes.

 

[browningguy]

Any actual examples of this happening?

 

[JohnBiltz]

Not a lot of cops carrying 1911s.

 

[1911 guy]

You'll notice that this only became an issue after the plastic guns got popular. They marketed to the lowest common denominator of the shooting community (grunt, point, click, bang, grunt) and suddenly everything else became "too complex".

Reality check. the "fine motor skills" argument is bunk. Shooting, in it's entirety, is fine motor skill. Seventy years ago 18 year old kids with sixth grade educations were handed M-1's and 1911's. Suddenly that handgun is too mechanically complex for you? All this talk of how many rounds downrange before you carry a gun, but you still might forget a safety? Your training time was wasted, as well as your ammo. This is not directed to any particular participant in this conversation, but these are the comments that get thrown around all the time. They are idiocy. If you carry a handgun with a safety, train to use it. After all, carrying handguns WITHOUT safeties has ingrained the habit in a whole generation of shooters to ignore them and find them "complicated".

We're never going back to the moon, folks. The men who invented the Atlas rocket are gone, and the current crop are baffled by a lever operated by the thumb.

 

[kBob]

OK I'll bite.

Seen it on various forms of action pistol shooting a number of times. Frequently followed by a muttered curse and then somewhat delayed first shots.

It is an issue.

Contrary to even expert belief not everyone goes into tunnel vision, hearing exclusion, heart pounding fight or flight mode when "the buzzer goes off" even if that buzzer is half a mag of name your caliber bad guy ammo filling the air.......but 99 percent plus folks do so to some degree or another. Even for those few that do "go out in the cold" it is mechanically possible to not flip off the safety when meaning to do so.

I see this failure trotted out by the DA revolver and DA only or safety trigger crowd a good bit.

I see it mainly as a training issue.

-kBob

 

[Drail]

"Forgetting" to pop the safety off is kind of like "forgetting" which pedal is the brake and which pedal is the throttle......... It ain't rocket science. It most defintely IS a training issue.

 

[X-Rap]

I flip off the safety even when there isn't one. The posts so far again indicate to me that the 1911 is an expert's gun.
Some really are others just think they are.
My 1911's are just for fun anymore as I am happier with more bullets and simplicity.
I am, by the way, no, expert.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A proper thumb over thumb grip makes taking the safety off automatic. I practice drawing thumb over thumb, with trigger finger indexed. With the decision to shoot, I simply close my hand, wiping off the safety and pressing the trigger at the same time.

 

[Drail]

Pretty good advice there. Keep it simple......

 

[Kano383]

So, safeties might be an issue when training lacks, but people who consistently use them don't see them as an issue since it becomes second nature.

What of the second part of the questions: are there documented examples of LEOs or other pros getting shot because they flunked the safety, especially in the older days when many service guns did have a safety? And I mean, as in often enough to be a cuse of concern?

Asking because in my searches I've not uncovered much in regard.

 

[VThillman]

My practice with my Witness .45 involves moving the safety off while bringing the gun up, then double-tap, safety to on, gun down, start over. This is my bedside gun, not my carry gun, so no holster.

 

[entropy]

If anything I have the opposite problem, I tend to swipe the safety off just from habit without really even realizing I did it.

Same for me; Kinda funny with Glocks. I tend to buy autos that have 1911-type safeties, and when I shoot a Glock or other type at the range, I've usually just loaded and dropped the slide myself, so I don't then of course, but that's where the thumb migrates to anyway. I do not like the M9's safety at all.

My practice with my Witness .45 involves moving the safety off while bringing the gun up, then double-tap, safety to on, gun down, start over. This is my bedside gun, not my carry gun, so no holster.

Then that is what you will do in action, even if more than two rounds are needed. Vary your training.

 

[Indawind]

I flip off the safety even when there isn't one.

Pretty much. When it is just part of the action of bringing a gun up to bear from years of that motion. Kind of like tying you shoes, you don't think about it, you just do it.

I can see potential problems are in the realm of possibility but personally I am comfortable with manual safeties.

 

[200Apples]

Asking because in my searches I've not uncovered much in regard.

Call Gunsite, in Paulden, AZ. Ask to speak with any instructor. They'll tell you.

Welcome to THR.

 

[Kano383]

Call Gunsite, in Paulden, AZ. Ask to speak with any instructor. They'll tell you.

Welcome to THR.

Thanks for the welcome, from you and others...

Do you mean that the Gunsite instructors have stories of people getting shot because of the safety? (Giving them a call from here would be a long shot, so to speak... )

 

[Creature]

Any actual examples of this happening?

I did it during a particularly difficult and physical stage in a timed competition. I was so preoccupied with my strategy of footwork and mag change that during a transition, I forgot to disengage the safety after I took up my position and took aim at my targets. And I know that gun. It was very startling.

 

[rskent]

A proper thumb over thumb grip makes taking the safety off automatic.

This is it. I primarily shoot Glocks now. Even so, When I pick up a 1911 it is very much automatic.

 

[gc70]

I would like to know: anyone ever forgets to disengage the safety when drawing a gun with a 1911-type frame mounted safety?

I never forget on 1911s ... or any other semi-autos. My son told me some folks laughed at me when they realized I was thumbing a non-existent safety on and off during a Glock match.

 

[200Apples]

Do you mean that the Gunsite instructors have stories of people getting shot because of the safety?

Jeff Cooper had stories. It is recorded too that at one point in the mid-1980s after API had become [Orange] Gunsite, where the Gunsite Academy had been running as such for some time, Cooper had announced in his monthly newsletter to the Family:

"As all recent clients are aware, the low thumb - under the safety - is no longer optional here at Gunsite, despite it's use by some very good shots. During the last class [for example] we had three students who did not believe us, and who kicked the safety on inadvertently under stress. How good they "died" on the range and not on the street!"

Personally, I have yet to attend a 250 (pistol class) at Gunsite, but it's on my short list. When I started shooting a 1911, I was shown a good grip, but a thumb-under-the-safety grip. In the years that followed, I learned that this was an incorrect way to grip a 1911 (unless it's use was to be forever strictly for target shooting) and I have had to become accustomed to drawing my pistol the proper way, thumb-on-top-of-safety. I have found that all it takes to regain some comfort with my strong hand is to counter-clock it ever so slightly on the right-side grip panel. I then can have a more-or-less comfortable thumb position on top of the safety -AND- still depress the grip safety. It is now almost second nature.

We all should be aware of how the stress of competition and the stress when the flag truly flies can affect our motor skills. We will always fall [default] to our level of training.